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[Odyssey] Navy Battlecruisers

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kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2013-04-15 21:05:12 UTC
^^ What he said. 200m for a navy BC, blegh I know I'd still get it but at 150 I'd be a lot happier :D

<3 my cane. Hope the Fleet edition will be pretty.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#342 - 2013-04-15 21:13:03 UTC
MOTHERFUCKING YES I LOVE THIS THREAD TITLE EVEN THOUGH I HAVE YET TO READ THE THREAD!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#343 - 2013-04-15 23:38:18 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
[quote]
There are successful tactics for Drake fleets out there that would fit this ship like a glove. They are wise to be cautious.



Ohh yeh I hear that, that is basically my question.
Which scenarios I mean throw something at me ^^.
I just can't visualize it, yet.....

One example, PODLA Drake

Relying less on tank and more on speed, as a group putting those mids to a bit different use than normal.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Natasha Rachmaninova
Interminatus
#344 - 2013-04-16 07:24:54 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Why choosing the Brutix instead of the Myrmidon as a Navy hull?

    • Internal discussion resulted in favor of the Brutix since we felt it represented the Gallente combat doctrine more accurately with close range hybrids. A Myrmidon Navy Issue could also have been problematic to balance without overstepping on the Dominix, Vexor Navy Issue or even turret ships.

  • Why are the Navy Battlecruisers not all improvements of the basic tech1 hullls?

    • Plain improving stats of the tech1 hulls doesn't necessarily offer a good balancing solution; it may overpower an already very popular ship, or not provide a good enough role for a Navy variation.
    [/list]


    LOL? Whats the problem in making Myrmidon a blaster boat? Look at scorpion for instance... Absolutely different boats... Unbelieveble!
    Mr Floydy
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #345 - 2013-04-16 13:23:11 UTC
    seth Hendar wrote:
    look more closely to the screen, the displayed EHP is specific to eve HQ, the eve HP is 61K (look closer at the screenshot, it is displayed just above the "tank ability", wich is nowhere close to ANY BS HP (mainly because of the rig size and slot layout)

    a 2 LSE / 2 invuln HAM drake for instance is displayed at 100K EHP in eveHQ (which is translated as 76k EVE HP)

    a fitted pest (shield ofc) is 105k ehp (82k EVE hp), not what you call "so close"

    agreed on TE nerf, it will hurt all turret based ships, wich INCLUDE the cane, but for comparison purpose to the old cane, i kept the current one


    Stop looking at Eve HP / EFT etc. Look at the raw stats. In terms of HP the new Battlecruisers have T1 battleship level hitpoints and resist - therefore Battleship ehp.

    I can only assume the reason you are saying "it's nowhere near BS level" is because you aren't comparing like for like fits. You are realistically only ever going to use a single 1600mm plate on a Battlecruiser (unless baiting) - which on the Cane will give you something like 80k EHP with an eamn, dc2 + 3x trimark. Fit the same on a Tempest and it'll be around the same.
    Battleships pull ahead as you tend to fit 2-3 Plates on them.

    In terms of hitpoints alone these ships are miles in front of even Command ships with. Chuck the 1600mm plate, eamn and dc2 with 2x trimarks on an Absolution (which has both T2 resists + the 5% resist bonus) - it'll only have 90k ehp compared to the 80k on the faction Cane or 70k if you did the same on an Astarte.

    These ships aren't going to have the resists of T2 ships to match their ehp usefulness, but to suggest they have barely any extra ehp over a standard battlecruiser is just silly.
    seth Hendar
    I love you miners
    #346 - 2013-04-16 14:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
    Mr Floydy wrote:
    seth Hendar wrote:
    look more closely to the screen, the displayed EHP is specific to eve HQ, the eve HP is 61K (look closer at the screenshot, it is displayed just above the "tank ability", wich is nowhere close to ANY BS HP (mainly because of the rig size and slot layout)

    a 2 LSE / 2 invuln HAM drake for instance is displayed at 100K EHP in eveHQ (which is translated as 76k EVE HP)

    a fitted pest (shield ofc) is 105k ehp (82k EVE hp), not what you call "so close"

    agreed on TE nerf, it will hurt all turret based ships, wich INCLUDE the cane, but for comparison purpose to the old cane, i kept the current one


    Stop looking at Eve HP / EFT etc. Look at the raw stats. In terms of HP the new Battlecruisers have T1 battleship level hitpoints and resist - therefore Battleship ehp.

    I can only assume the reason you are saying "it's nowhere near BS level" is because you aren't comparing like for like fits. You are realistically only ever going to use a single 1600mm plate on a Battlecruiser (unless baiting) - which on the Cane will give you something like 80k EHP with an eamn, dc2 + 3x trimark. Fit the same on a Tempest and it'll be around the same.
    Battleships pull ahead as you tend to fit 2-3 Plates on them.

    In terms of hitpoints alone these ships are miles in front of even Command ships with. Chuck the 1600mm plate, eamn and dc2 with 2x trimarks on an Absolution (which has both T2 resists + the 5% resist bonus) - it'll only have 90k ehp compared to the 80k on the faction Cane or 70k if you did the same on an Astarte.

    These ships aren't going to have the resists of T2 ships to match their ehp usefulness, but to suggest they have barely any extra ehp over a standard battlecruiser is just silly.

    what is the point to compare HP of unfitted ships? cause you fly so oftne naked right?

    comparing ships make sense only if you fit them, and i compared their respective tank with similar fitting, suiting their respective abilitys, including the drake in the process just to show you that, if a navy cane is "unbalanced" because of it's HP pool, then what to conclude about a drake( and i'm not even talking about the navy one)?

    i compared shield cane to a shield pest (wich to me is the weekest shield BS able to be used) , and the pest still have way more HP, while the drake as just 5k less

    of course you use more modules on a bs, you have more slots!

    shield cane HP in combat will be nowhere near any BS you will ever see in combat. period.

    and you were comparing them to BS HP, and now to BC?

    i damn hope they will have more HP than regular BC, THATS ONE OF THE PURPOSE OF NAVY SHIPS
    Anabella Rella
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    #347 - 2013-04-16 16:10:20 UTC
    The old Hurricane was "overpowered" so, it got nerfed. Now, you un-nerf it (including giving it back the full 1350 power grid) and re-introduce it as the Fleet 'Cane... I don't get it. If it was "overpowered" before what's changed?

    Are the more limited availability and higher price supposed to be balancing factors?

    Also, this seems like a pretty nasty trick. The other races get something somewhat fresh while Minmatar get the old Hurricane back. Is this a new doctrine for ships; to nerf the hell out of something then, bring it back un-nerfed as a pricier, limited availability item?

    When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #348 - 2013-04-16 16:43:49 UTC
    Anabella Rella wrote:
    The old Hurricane was "overpowered" so, it got nerfed. Now, you un-nerf it (including giving it back the full 1350 power grid) and re-introduce it as the Fleet 'Cane... I don't get it. If it was "overpowered" before what's changed?

    Are the more limited availability and higher price supposed to be balancing factors?

    Also, this seems like a pretty nasty trick. The other races get something somewhat fresh while Minmatar get the old Hurricane back. Is this a new doctrine for ships; to nerf the hell out of something then, bring it back un-nerfed as a pricier, limited availability item?


    If the old Hurricane had cost 150-200m ISK (vice 20-25m), it would not have been nearly as common. While you have to be careful using price as a balancing factor (see e.g. Titans), it is still a relevant factor.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    Mr Floydy
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #349 - 2013-04-16 17:57:48 UTC
    seth Hendar wrote:
    what is the point to compare HP of unfitted ships? cause you fly so oftne naked right?

    I wasn't comparing unfitted ships? I said that before fitting they have the same amount of hit points. So if you fit the same modules to both they'll have the same ehp, that is significantly more than a T1 Battlecruiser (not a marginal difference like you earlier suggested. That's my point in it's entirety. The fact that you have to make the most of the additional powergrid of a Battleship to get more ehp than the Navy Battlecruisers shows that these new Bcruisers are going to be tough.

    No-where have I tried to suggest that these ships have more ehp than a fully fitted Battleship. I was just using them as an example that they are significantly more than T1 Battlecruisers to counter your earlier comment.
    Mr Hyde113
    #350 - 2013-04-16 19:09:28 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Why not giving 7 lows to the Harbinger Navy Issue instead of 5 med slots?

    • The first internal iteration of the Harbinger had 7 lows and a 10% Armor HP bonus instead of the Medium Energy Turret Tracking bonus. After some play testing we felt the role was too restricting - we opted for more flexibility by changing it to its current form.





    Wow. You have the right idea, and then decide its too restricting? Restricting to what? Usefulness?

    A 7/4/7 6 turret Harbinger with 10% Dmg and 10% Armor HP WOULD HAVE BEEN AMAZING.

    5 Mid slots is not flexible, its just plain worthless. Harbinger (clearly judging from its race and HP amounts) is an Armour BC.

    It does not need mids, it needs lows. Lows give more options for tank and DMG and 4 mids is plenty for MWD, Web, Scram, Cap booster.


    Please revert to the 7 low Harb idea.

    -Hyde
    Katran Luftschreck
    Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
    #351 - 2013-04-16 23:55:43 UTC
    Ah I see that the Harbinger will go from being the least used standard battlecruiser to the least used navy battlecruiser as well. Roll

    http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
    Giribaldi
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #352 - 2013-04-17 00:32:03 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Updated here.

    ACQUISITION METHODS

    • Regular corporation LP stores, blueprint offer: 250,000 LPs plus 100 million ISK for 1 run blueprint copy (BPC)
    • Regular corporation LP stores, built ship offer: 300,000 LPs plus 1x built tech1 Battlecruiser plus two Cruiser sized Nexus Chips
    • FW Loyalty Point stores, blueprint offer: for 125,000 LPs plus 10m ISK for 1 run BPC
    • FW Loyalty Point Stores, built ship offer: 125,000 LPs plus 1x built tech1 Battlecruiser plus two Cruiser sized Nexus Chips


    u need 2 significanntly reduce this

    200k LP 75m isk, 250k for next lvl up
    Nyancat Audeles
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #353 - 2013-04-17 03:30:36 UTC
    Cost is too high, I will never be able to afford this without losing my sanity...

    Navy Destroyers next hopefully are not TOO expensive
    DR BiCarbonate
    Doomriders.
    Ragequit Cancel Sub
    #354 - 2013-04-17 04:08:48 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Time for some feedback on the feedback.




  • The Hurricane Fleet Issue feels bland for the price tag and doesn't bring anything new to the table.

    • We saw that you noticed the Hurricane Fleet Issue is nearly exactly the same as the pre-nerf Hurricane. Basically we don't give a **** about what you think. **** you.



    That's basically what I read there.

    High five ccp!
    Laura Belle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #355 - 2013-04-17 12:07:09 UTC
    so brutix had and will still have 1 less slot comparing to its counterparts? do you have anything against gallante?
    Bouh Revetoile
    In Wreck we thrust
    #356 - 2013-04-17 12:21:53 UTC
    Laura Belle wrote:
    so brutix had and will still have 1 less slot comparing to its counterparts? do you have anything against gallante?

    Reread the OP maybe ?
    Kale Eledar
    Venerated Industries
    #357 - 2013-04-17 19:47:18 UTC
    Welp, any remaining reason to fly an Astarte has just gone out the window. The Navy Brutix's tracking bonus makes Void ammo delicious and nutritious, and it should be similar in price. I expect widespread backdoor banditry to occur to other brawling battlecruisers. I believe the correct term is The Sex.

    First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.
    Viribus
    Wilderness
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
    #358 - 2013-04-18 00:07:49 UTC
    Kale Eledar wrote:
    Welp, any remaining reason to fly an Astarte has just gone out the window. The Navy Brutix's tracking bonus makes Void ammo delicious and nutritious, and it should be similar in price. I expect widespread backdoor banditry to occur to other brawling battlecruisers. I believe the correct term is The Sex.


    Yeah except for the T2 resists, the rep bonus, the falloff bonus, and the overall greater dps, there's no reason to fly an Astarte

    With the exception of the fleet 'Cane, they're all just expensive sidegrades that have a different role but are overall barely more powerful (and in some ways inferior) to their regular counterparts. And the hurricane boring because it's just a straight upgrade.

    It's great to give navy ships unique roles but at least make them powerful enough in their roles to justify the price tag. Having the navy drake do less dps than the regular one when it's role is to be a dedicated dps boat is utterly mystifying

    watch me be a scurb and get owned
    Luc Chastot
    #359 - 2013-04-18 00:23:30 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Why choosing the Brutix instead of the Myrmidon as a Navy hull?

    • Internal discussion resulted in favor of the Brutix since we felt it represented the Gallente combat doctrine more accurately with close range hybrids. A Myrmidon Navy Issue could also have been problematic to balance without overstepping on the Dominix, Vexor Navy Issue or even turret ships.

    Ytterbium, using the Myrmidon hull does not force you to make it a drone boat. You could perfectly use the Myrm hull with the stats you have here.

    Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

    Armin Arraeb
    Doomheim
    #360 - 2013-04-18 11:47:43 UTC
    There is one thing I don’t understand:

    For all races CCP has chosen the Battlecruiser that is not available as a T2 ship, to make a navy version of it. Why not with the Gallente? This makes absolutely no sense to me! There are enough versions of the Brutix! A Navy Myrmidon would be logic and usefull!