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Battleship Missile debates for Odyssey
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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-04-14 17:26:17 UTC
Yes they need to be reworked, but you need to remember the fully selectable damage, the fact the damage is constant from 0-TP/lock range. Nothing else has that kind of flexibility. You can 2-shot elite frigs orbiting at 4-5km and in the same breath vape them at 100km away in two shots.

Like I say, it wont take much to tip them over the edge, if they're not careful.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-04-14 19:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yes they need to be reworked, but you need to remember the fully selectable damage, the fact the damage is constant from 0-TP/lock range. Nothing else has that kind of flexibility. You can 2-shot elite frigs orbiting at 4-5km and in the same breath vape them at 100km away in two shots.

Like I say, it wont take much to tip them over the edge, if they're not careful.


PvE is just one side of the medal ;)

While I agree that you can shoot down frigs quite fast (elite-frigs with two volleys of T1 ammo), you need almost perfect skills, 2 or 3 rigors and a TP to do so. This is on poorly fitted NPC frig..

If those frigs starts to move at significant speed, with proper resists.. totaly different story though.

I agree though that CM's don't need a huge buff, but their velocity should dramatically increase, while maintaining the same range (or a bit less, just keep in mind the sniper-role). In addition, explosion velocity could be bumped slightly aswell, as this is the only problem wit CM's dmg application.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2013-04-14 20:21:15 UTC
Well, we recently got drone damage mods introduced so who's to say a speed (missile+radius) mod for missiles can't be added?

Also, no gun reaches much more than 110-120km without being used on a bonused ship (rare) or by using mods .. and that can only be done with T2 ammo which has significantly less damage plus other drawbacks than 'normal', whereas missiles retain their properties at all ranges.

Speed is the way to adjust range, but even with ludicrous speeds (10+km/s) you are still looking at 6-10s travel time which will be more than enough for a logi request and subsequent reps to land in time for the damage spike .. so we need to cook up something for the LR options or cruise will never be more than damage support on targets already pounded into submission by guns.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-04-14 21:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yes they need to be reworked, but you need to remember the fully selectable damage, the fact the damage is constant from 0-TP/lock range. Nothing else has that kind of flexibility. You can 2-shot elite frigs orbiting at 4-5km and in the same breath vape them at 100km away in two shots.

Like I say, it wont take much to tip them over the edge, if they're not careful.


PvE is just one side of the medal ;)

While I agree that you can shoot down frigs quite fast (elite-frigs with two volleys of T1 ammo), you need almost perfect skills, 2 or 3 rigors and a TP to do so. This is on poorly fitted NPC frig..

If those frigs starts to move at significant speed, with proper resists.. totaly different story though.

I agree though that CM's don't need a huge buff, but their velocity should dramatically increase, while maintaining the same range (or a bit less, just keep in mind the sniper-role). In addition, explosion velocity could be bumped slightly aswell, as this is the only problem wit CM's dmg application.


I absolutely agree, all I'm saying is, we (they) need to be careful. Some of the ideas in the thread: better damage application, 15% more damage would be a bridge too far in PvE and likely not enough in PvP. It's going to take some out of the box planning to land both elements well methinks.



I am a big fan of the concept of trading speed for flight time, it would make firewalls harder to work too. Although, there's something deliciously cinematic about watching the volleys (slowly) sail in with their contrails....bugger all do to with balance, but damnit if it's not just cool.


Edit: A drastically shortened reload time might do wonders for these things too. Selectable damage is nice, but only if you have the flexibility to apply it.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-04-14 21:44:16 UTC
Missiles have always had the them of delayed damage, but the damage they do is large.

I think some thing that make damage application longer longer once in placed mulitplies damage.

In battle tech the board game they have a narc missile that if hit would set out a signal to the attacking pilots missiles alowing them to hit more accurately with fewer missiles missing.
Sorta like a Fire and forget Target painter missile. Though only works for your ships missile system. (so that one launcher would have to reload to regular missiles to fire)

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-04-14 21:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
Gevlin wrote:
Missiles have always had the them of delayed damage, but the damage they do is large.

I think some thing that make damage application longer longer once in placed mulitplies damage.

In battle tech the board game they have a narc missile that if hit would set out a signal to the attacking pilots missiles alowing them to hit more accurately with fewer missiles missing.
Sorta like a Fire and forget Target painter missile. Though only works for your ships missile system. (so that one launcher would have to reload to regular missiles to fire)


So cruise missiles that after doing its damage leaves a residual trace that increases the targets signature radius for a period of time allowing other ships to track it easier .... interesting as a T2 variant cruise missile would give a reason to train and use T2 CM raven..

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-04-14 22:16:37 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Also, no gun reaches much more than 110-120km without being used on a bonused ship (rare) or by using mods .. and that can only be done with T2 ammo which has significantly less damage plus other drawbacks than 'normal', whereas missiles retain their properties at all ranges.


Tachyon Beam Lasers have a maximum range of 155,600m with Radio. 425mm railguns with Iron charges have a range of 175,200m. 1400mm Howitzer Artillery with Carbonized Lead have a range of 183,500m. All the numbers are with T1 ammo, without mods, rigs or implants, nor do they include any hull-based range bonuses. None of them can deal the maximum theoretical damage at that range, but then one of the key problems of large and capital missiles is that they very, very rarely apply their maximum theoretical damage at all. That and their inability to score wrecking hits are built-in weapon flaws for the fact that missiles will always hit as long as the target is in maximum flight range (unlike guns which depend on tracking), but the gun range stands and should be compareable with missiles, unless you give them another significant advantage to make up for the range deficiency, something I honestly would rather not see for fear of making missiles overpowered at warp-limited ranges (under 150km).
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-04-14 23:12:46 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Tachyon Beam Lasers have a maximum range of 155,600m with Radio. 425mm railguns with Iron charges have a range of 175,200m. 1400mm Howitzer Artillery with Carbonized Lead have a range of 183,500m. All the numbers are with T1 ammo, without mods, rigs or implants, nor do they include any hull-based range bonuses.


Then my proposed changes in the OP are reasonable as they would bring maximum range to about 200 on a Raven.

How about we bump damages by 10% instead of 15%, and add something like a 10% explosion velocity buff ?

Would that (+ the 30% bonus to missile velocity) be a good way to fix Cruise Missiles ?
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-04-15 08:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
It's not quite as simple as that.

For one, missiles don't have any TC or TE-like module (nor should they imo, different weapons are supposed to be different). For another, even a 30% increase in velocity doesn't fix the issue, it just makes it less pronounced than it is. My proposal of 10 seconds for maximum flight time, for instance, would demand speeds in excess of 25,000 m/s. Even 15 seconds maximum flight time (which imo is the absolute upper figure to make missiles competitive with guns at all) requires speeds of about 12,000 m/s. Obviously, both of those speeds are drastically higher than anything currently in game, which could have unintended side effects. For instance, Precisions with 12,000 m/s or 25,000 m/s and increased explosion velocity could become a death to interceptors. Do we want that?

As for the explosion velocity buff, imo we need to decide what we want cruise missiles to do. Right now, the setting is clear: T1s for range, Fury for damage and Precision for frigates. What hurts is the mixed groups - say, you're shooting at battleships (obvious answer: Fury), need to switch to frigates (Precision) and then back to battleships (Fury again), effectively reducing dps to 0 for 20 seconds (2 swaps). Either missiles need to be reworked to function similar to ammo (short, medium, long range, with similar ability to hit different sized targets, basically averaged out since missile can't miss) or they need to be swappable faster. I'm honestly not sure what the solution here should be, but imo we should be very, very careful not to make them too powerful against small targets. We want Ravens to be used in pvp, but we don't want them to become the frigate swatters. That's why Precisions/Javelins should always be on one's mind when suggesting changes.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-04-15 08:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
It's not quite as simple as that.

For one, missiles don't have any TC or TE-like module (nor should they imo, different weapons are supposed to be different). For another, even a 30% increase in velocity doesn't fix the issue, it just makes it less pronounced than it is. My proposal of 10 seconds for maximum flight time, for instance, would demand speeds in excess of 25,000 m/s. Even 15 seconds maximum flight time (which imo is the absolute upper figure to make missiles competitive with guns at all) requires speeds of about 12,000 m/s. Obviously, both of those speeds are drastically higher than anything currently in game, which could have unintended side effects. For instance, Precisions with 12,000 m/s or 25,000 m/s and increased explosion velocity could become a death to interceptors. Do we want that?

As for the explosion velocity buff, imo we need to decide what we want cruise missiles to do. Right now, the setting is clear: T1s for range, Fury for damage and Precision for frigates. What hurts is the mixed groups - say, you're shooting at battleships (obvious answer: Fury), need to switch to frigates (Precision) and then back to battleships (Fury again), effectively reducing dps to 0 for 20 seconds (2 swaps). Either missiles need to be reworked to function similar to ammo (short, medium, long range, with similar ability to hit different sized targets, basically averaged out since missile can't miss) or they need to be swappable faster. I'm honestly not sure what the solution here should be, but imo we should be very, very careful not to make them too powerful against small targets. We want Ravens to be used in pvp, but we don't want them to become the frigate swatters. That's why Precisions/Javelins should always be on one's mind when suggesting changes.




A ceptor flying at 3k m/s negates 99,xx % of CM's damage - even if they are precisions. That is before resists. I agree with the rest of your post thogh. Any buff to CM must be considered wisely. Torpedoes are easier.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2013-04-15 09:16:06 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Tachyon Beam Lasers have a maximum range of 155,600m with Radio...

Not sure how you got your numbers, but as there are no announced changes to ammo/weapons other than the cap/fitting of lasers you can use EFT (Scorpion for no bonuses and all V's);

Radio = +60% optimal, Aurora = +80% optimal .. Tachyon unbonused w. Aurora = 119/25 optimal/falloff.
DPS using Aurora at optimal = 30 at 119km,
DPS using Aurora at optimal+falloff (50%) = 15 at 134km
Damage spread: EM/Thermal = 5/3

Proton/Nuclear/Lead = +60% optimal, Tremor = +80% optimal .. 1400's unbonused w. tremor = 108/44 optimal/falloff.
DPS using Tremor optimal = 22 at 108km,
DPS using Tremor at optimal+falloff (50%) = 11 at 152km
Damage spread: Explosive/Kinetic = 5/3

Iron = +60% optimal, Spike = +80% optimal .. 425's unbonused w. Spike = 130/30 optimal/falloff
DPS using Spike at optimal = 26 at 130km,
DPS using Spike at optimal+falloff (50%) = 13 at 160km
Damage spread: Thermal/Kinetic = 5/5

Vanilla Cruise does 33 DPS at 0-168km with 100% damage spread. It only loses the comparison when you factor in travel time and the inability to extend the range ..

If we solve the travel time issue to cut it down to say 5-6s (Raven Cruise takes 15-20s to reach 150km) then we have managed to create a weapon system that outperforms all others at range. Now I am all for the occasional time limited OP ship, but an entire weapon system is just insane .. tried saying the same when they revised projectiles but it fell on deaf ears back then so hoping reason prevails this time.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-04-15 12:07:48 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Tachyon Beam Lasers have a maximum range of 155,600m with Radio...

Not sure how you got your numbers, but as there are no announced changes to ammo/weapons other than the cap/fitting of lasers you can use EFT (Scorpion for no bonuses and all V's);


Maximum attainable range = optimal + 2x falloff. In case of Tachyons using Radios, that's 105,600 + 2x 25,000 = 155,600.

Quote:
Vanilla Cruise does 33 DPS at 0-168km with 100% damage spread. It only loses the comparison when you factor in travel time and the inability to extend the range ..


I wasn't discussing damage, I was discussing range. You claimed in your post #43 that no gun can reach further than 110-120 km unbonused, which is clearly false as proven above. I would never have put rails, artilleries and beams into the same sentence if I was to discuss dps, because they stand on completely different premises (beams for dps, artilleries for alpha strike, rails for range) and because you really cannot compare eft numbers directly, not even for instance between beams and rails, much less turrets and missiles. Turrets depend on tracking speed, which defines their optimal dps range (neither too close, nor too far), whereas missiles depend on target's sig size and velocity, regardless of range. A small and fast enough target can avoid missile's damage almost completely regardless of how it's flying, whereas a turret will still be able to oneshoot it, provided it gets small enough angular velocity on it. In practice, this means that a spread out turret fleet will pop anything, whereas a spread out missile fleet will still struggle against targets like interceptors.

Anyway, as I said, apples and oranges.

Just for the giggles, though: An unmodified Fury Cruise does 47 dps. Do you know how much damage it'll deal to a stock Typhoon with no modules flying at maximum speed? 41 before resists. That's right, a fury cruise will apply only 87% of its potential damage to an equally sized target without any speed mods whatsoever. So much for "full damage at any range".

Gimme more Cynos wrote:
A ceptor flying at 3k m/s negates 99,xx % of CM's damage - even if they are precisions. That is before resists. I agree with the rest of your post thogh. Any buff to CM must be considered wisely. Torpedoes are easier.


True, however, said ceptor spiraling towards a gunboat will also be very, very hard to hit. I agree that currently, missiles are too weak against small targets, but we don't want to make them too powerful either, or it'll just invite another nerf.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-04-16 15:26:00 UTC
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#54 - 2013-04-16 18:39:02 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Alright gents, mission sort-of-accomplished :

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2890295#post2890295



Ya. The only thing is left are Torps.

Whatever.
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