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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

First post First post First post
Author
Kadere Isendre
Sonum
#181 - 2013-04-14 10:51:49 UTC
No need to quote Progod at this point, but I do think his point is valid and needs to be addressed.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#182 - 2013-04-14 11:01:14 UTC
any chance you could let us stack used laser crystals in cargo bay please?
it gets annoying when you have to scroll through cargobay to see whats in it like loot when you have tens of used crystals there so you can switch ammo ...

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Gunar Posstaffson
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2013-04-14 11:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunar Posstaffson
progodlegend wrote:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.[/b]



I second this.-10% is basically nothing. Lets insert Amarr BS back to fleet fights...
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#184 - 2013-04-14 11:09:47 UTC
Gunar Posstaffson wrote:
progodlegend wrote:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.[/b]



I second this.-10% is basically nothing. Lets insert Amarr BS back to fleet fights...


This also by proxy shows why projectiles are so good and used on non bonused ships like amarr droneboats etc.....
make projectiles use some cap too slightly less than blasters and this might help to balance things a bit more aswell as boosting the cap regen on amarr ships without laser cap reduction bonus on

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Sorrowsbane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2013-04-14 11:15:18 UTC
Have to agree, something has gone seriously wrong with the scaling of cap usage for lasers when you hit BS sized weapons. -10% to cap usage is just not enough to bring it into line with other races.
Lady Xantios
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2013-04-14 11:18:59 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II



Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.


Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.


My thoughts exactly, finaly someone that makes sense. Devs please pay heed. +1
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2013-04-14 11:20:54 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

This also by proxy shows why projectiles are so good and used on non bonused ships like amarr droneboats etc.....
make projectiles use some cap too slightly less than blasters and this might help to balance things a bit more aswell as boosting the cap regen on amarr ships without laser cap reduction bonus on

I dont think giving cap need for projectiles is a good idea , it would probably be a so small cap need that wouldnt affect much at all , but at the same time would give matars another excuse for having those op weapons and ask for another buff...
also it would make the game even less diverse , not welcomed at all

btw having insane cap need for lasers is fine until it is compensated by something , but it seems it is just a huge disadvantage , especially at bs lvl , making cap boosters a must and even those dont help much, best rig will be the cap need reduction :D probably a must have
Charity Maple
Delta Innovative Tech and Cat House
#188 - 2013-04-14 11:22:18 UTC
progodlegend wrote:

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.


+1
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#189 - 2013-04-14 11:59:17 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II



Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.


Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.

Dev Tesla
Deep Matter Inc.
#190 - 2013-04-14 12:04:32 UTC
progodlegend wrote:

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.


+1
progodlegend
Syndicate Enterprise
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#191 - 2013-04-14 12:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: progodlegend
Naomi Knight wrote:
pls ban nulli spammers thx


Our experience in the other threads has taught us that this is the only way to get real ideas noticed. I'll admit it's not something I would want to look at if I weren't the one asking for it, and I know it's going to annoy Raivi and Kil2, but they are the ones that chose forum threads as their method of feedback. The threads move so fast, with every random person throwing their opinion in, that there is no way that Fozzie and Rise can get any meaningful information out of the threads. The only thing they could possibly get is some typo they may have missed, or maybe a few small ideas here and there.

The ultimate irony is, as we continue to spam until Rise and Fozzie respond, this post will ultimately be skipped over by most people, and most likely Rise and Fozzie themselves.

I apologize for this, but ultimately, we are afraid that people who lack the experience needed to comment on these changes, will actually end up influencing them some what. I know that sounds arrogant, but we can't have a thread full of people who agree with a bullshit change like this -10% activation cost for Large pulse lasers. Also, all of the Odyssey feedback threads are full of people making up numbers and just generally using inaccurate facts to argue terrible ideas. Yes, this is a large part of the reason why I'm running for CSM, but i'm not elected yet, and there's a decent chance I won't get elected, so this is the best I can do.

P.S: I forgot to mention in my math's part, that all of the numbers I quoted involved a blaster boat and a laser boat that both had 2 damage mods on them. That doesn't change any of the percentages or numbers quoted, it's just important for comparing results.
Brain Gehirn
Perkone
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-04-14 12:25:49 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II



Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.


Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.



Cap is really a massive problem actually. Please review it!
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2013-04-14 12:26:44 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
pls ban nulli spammers thx


Our experience in the other threads has taught us that this is the only way to get real ideas noticed. I'll admit it's not something I would want to look at if I weren't the one asking for it, and I know it's going to annoy Raivi and Kil2, but they are the ones that chose forum threads as their method of feedback. The threads move so fast, with every random person throwing their opinion in, that there is no way that Fozzie and Rise can get any meaningful information out of the threads. The only thing they could possibly get is some typo they may have missed, or maybe a few small ideas here and there.

The ultimate irony is, as we continue to spam until Rise and Fozzie respond, this post will ultimately be skipped over by most people, and most likely Rise and Fozzie themselves.

I apologize for this, but ultimately, we are afraid that people who lack the experience needed to comment on these changes, will actually end up influencing these changes some what. And we can't have a thread full of people who agree with a bullshit change like this -10% activation cost for Large pulse lasers.

P.S: I forgot to mention in my math's part, that all of the numbers I quoted involved a blaster boat and a laser boat that both had 2 damage mods on them. That doesn't change any of the percentages or numbers quoted, it's just important for comparing results.

Yeah i agree totally.
It is realy said things have to come down to spamming if you want your idea noticed. :(
Whish they would make a better platform for us to feedback, a voting system would be a must ,this like system is so useless.
progodlegend
Syndicate Enterprise
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#194 - 2013-04-14 12:30:11 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
pls ban nulli spammers thx


Our experience in the other threads has taught us that this is the only way to get real ideas noticed. I'll admit it's not something I would want to look at if I weren't the one asking for it, and I know it's going to annoy Raivi and Kil2, but they are the ones that chose forum threads as their method of feedback. The threads move so fast, with every random person throwing their opinion in, that there is no way that Fozzie and Rise can get any meaningful information out of the threads. The only thing they could possibly get is some typo they may have missed, or maybe a few small ideas here and there.

The ultimate irony is, as we continue to spam until Rise and Fozzie respond, this post will ultimately be skipped over by most people, and most likely Rise and Fozzie themselves.

I apologize for this, but ultimately, we are afraid that people who lack the experience needed to comment on these changes, will actually end up influencing these changes some what. And we can't have a thread full of people who agree with a bullshit change like this -10% activation cost for Large pulse lasers.

P.S: I forgot to mention in my math's part, that all of the numbers I quoted involved a blaster boat and a laser boat that both had 2 damage mods on them. That doesn't change any of the percentages or numbers quoted, it's just important for comparing results.

Yeah i agree totally.
It is realy said things have to come down to spamming if you want your idea noticed. :(
Whish they would make a better platform for us to feedback, a voting system would be a must ,this like system is so useless.



I liked your post :).
D42 Agnostia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2013-04-14 12:38:42 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II



Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.


Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.


+1
jackk O'neil
Zero Fun Allowed
#196 - 2013-04-14 12:44:38 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II



Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.


Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#197 - 2013-04-14 12:47:19 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:
I don't think cap is the reason the Amarr BS hasn't been seen on the field lately. The Loki fleet with its almost impenetrable EM resist may have had something to do with it.



Not sure if you are ******** or trolling
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#198 - 2013-04-14 13:27:32 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II



Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.


Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.


Although I would prefer a damage buff. :D
Stickyhand
Velators at Dawn
#199 - 2013-04-14 13:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Stickyhand
Michael Harari wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:


Wait, I'm not supposed to compare Tach's to 1400's? Why? What race's "oversized" weapon do they compare to then and does that race find it physically impossible to fit them on ALL of their T1 BS's?


You should compare tachs to the 1600mm arty, which doesnt exist. 1400mm arty should be compared to mega beams.

No, what you posted is completely false; Tachs aren't oversized at all....they are just ridiculously hard to fit.: see link here Mega pulse are actually undersized....and using your own logic there, 650mm autocannons should be compared to Megapulse.

Energy weapons were designed to have more damage in their class, but in return are ridiculously hard to fit / have high cap use.
Tasha Saisima
Doomheim
#200 - 2013-04-14 13:47:49 UTC
back when lasers were very good across the board, the cap use made sense to help keep them in line. These days, it's too much. They don't have the dps or the tracking of blasters, they don't have the alpha of arties, you can't change damage type etc etc