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My suggested ECM changes
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Doctorkaba
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-03-31 14:21:36 UTC
My thoughts on the whole ECM being over powered was to change ECM to reduce the amount of targets your targeted ship could lock. The idea behind it is that currently, all forms (not including ECM) have a 100% chance of doing something. ECM is the only odd one out. All other forms of EWAR have a hard counter to it, but the counter doesn’t block the full amount of the EWAR’s effects. For example, TE/TC counter TD but they won’t ever provide enough bonus to remove the affect of a TD.
ECM’s counter is to reduce the % chance you will get jammed, which means no matter what happens, there will always be a chance of you getting jammed. Changing the ECM to a 100% chance of reducing the amount of locked targets, in my opinion, put this more in line with other EWAR.

The numbers could be that a T2 jam could remove 4 targets (racial jammers remove the full 4 if they are used against the appropriate ships, but maybe 1/2 vs the wrong race). This would be increased by ship skills. A Black Bird with the current 75% increased strength makes this a 7 total removal of locked targets (per jam). A black bird that doesn’t know what ships he will be facing exactly will only be fitting 2 or maximum of 3 jams of a certain race (generally, not talkin’ bout you odd balls out there :P).
ECCM would need to be changed to provide increased amount of targets. This I have no idea what numbers to give, but it would be proportionate to the jam amount. I’d say something like +2/3 targets (please note there is already a current module that affects this, and it fits in a high slot).

Or CCP could implement those combat boosters MB talked about :D : http://brutorbullfighter.blogspot.com/2013/03/combat-boosters-reloaded.html

PS: this will still make a falcon or other ship that uncloaks in a 1vmultiple death to that 1 person. All ewar tends to do this. Jams MUST still be able to turn the tide of a fight, just like TDs/SDs can do. (ya minmatar TPs can’t do anything good and TDs are more for specific fights)

Want some pvp help? Like to fly small and fast frigates? Then join the in game channel Tenori_Tigers!

Pan Dora
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-03-31 15:41:03 UTC
Quote:
The idea behind it is that currently, all forms (not including ECM) have a 100% chance of doing something. ECM is the only odd one out.


RD, TP, SD, Web, Neut have 100% chance of doing X% of something.

ECM, Warpd Disruptor/scrambler have X% chance of doing 100% of something

Its wel balanced out that way



Quote:
For example, TE/TC counter TD but they won’t ever provide enough bonus to remove the affect of a TD.


ECM’s counter is to reduce the % chance you will get jammed, which means no matter what happens, there will always be a chance of you getting jammed.


seems consistent to me. TE/TC don't remove the effect of TD, ECCM don't remove the effect of ECM.






-CCP would boost ECM so it also block the ability of buthurt posting.
Doctorkaba
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-03-31 16:11:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctorkaba
Pan Dora wrote:
Quote:
The idea behind it is that currently, all forms (not including ECM) have a 100% chance of doing something. ECM is the only odd one out.


RD, TP, SD, Web, Neut have 100% chance of doing X% of something.

ECM, Warpd Disruptor/scrambler have X% chance of doing 100% of something

Its wel balanced out that way


Quote:
For example, TE/TC counter TD but they won’t ever provide enough bonus to remove the affect of a TD.


ECM’s counter is to reduce the % chance you will get jammed, which means no matter what happens, there will always be a chance of you getting jammed.


seems consistent to me. TE/TC don't remove the effect of TD, ECCM don't remove the effect of ECM.





ECM has a 100% chance of having a less than 100% chance of doing something... sure. I would like ECM to have a set affect, not a chance to do its jam (at the expense of some OPness of course)

Want some pvp help? Like to fly small and fast frigates? Then join the in game channel Tenori_Tigers!

Pan Dora
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-03-31 18:26:09 UTC

My response was more based in the 'don't fix what its not broken' principle. ECM its well balnced and consistent whit other forms of eWar.

-CCP would boost ECM so it also block the ability of buthurt posting.
Doctorkaba
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-04-11 16:50:59 UTC
well it looks like the people like ECM being chanced based to kill the enemy. Can't complain, just fit more eccm.

Want some pvp help? Like to fly small and fast frigates? Then join the in game channel Tenori_Tigers!

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2013-04-11 18:01:41 UTC
How would sensor strength affect this?

Wouldn't this just make training multitasking worth it, since you'd be essentially making ECM utterly useless unless it was used in massive amounts?
Sigras
Conglomo
#7 - 2013-04-11 20:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Im assuming you mean down to a minimum of 1 target locked; if not, it would be horribly overpowered allowing most ships to be perma jammed with 2 modules and almost all ships to be completely locked out with 3 modules.

the problem is, with a minimum of 1 target locked, ECM becomes near useless. The only ships that would be seriously adversely affected are logistics ships and recon ships. in 90% of other cases, the extra locked targets are for convenience only.

EDIT: TL;DR
This change allows for two possibilities:
1. horribly OP ECM that locks everyone out guaranteed
2. totally useless ECM that does almost nothing to 80% of ships.
Stan'din
Pandemic Alpha
#8 - 2013-04-11 22:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Stan'din
NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO





ECM is not broken everyone else gets nice shiny ships they can battle in where as the caldari are stuck with a few exceptions. And this is there baby. the scorpion is fantastic.



if you can't handle ECM either quit pvp'ing because you suck. or bring your own ECM to counter





Alongside the AFK cloaking catalogue i might start making one for every post whining about ECM.

Your about as much use as a condom dispenser in the Vatican.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-04-11 23:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
so basically jammers only hurt t3 with this since they have a 5 target hardcoded limit. How is this better than current jams where if you spend the time in electronics skills, fit the right mods/rigs, and take ship skill to 5 you actually do something to a bs pilot who can load up tons of target locks?


I'll keep my random chance thank you...kind of why I trained recon and caldari BS 5 (well this and golem, that I then did not like so rokh resist bonus was next reason....but ccp is gimping that in BS tiericide to 4% instead of 5%...so now second reason is widow when/if I actually head back to pvp).
Doctorkaba
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-04-13 12:47:09 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
How would sensor strength affect this?

Wouldn't this just make training multitasking worth it, since you'd be essentially making ECM utterly useless unless it was used in massive amounts?



Just like training those current sensor strength skills are now? Sensor strength does have more current uses that just to hinder ECM.

Sigras wrote:
Im assuming you mean down to a minimum of 1 target locked; if not, it would be horribly overpowered allowing most ships to be perma jammed with 2 modules and almost all ships to be completely locked out with 3 modules.

the problem is, with a minimum of 1 target locked, ECM becomes near useless. The only ships that would be seriously adversely affected are logistics ships and recon ships. in 90% of other cases, the extra locked targets are for convenience only.

EDIT: TL;DR
This change allows for two possibilities:
1. horribly OP ECM that locks everyone out guaranteed
2. totally useless ECM that does almost nothing to 80% of ships.


The gallente ewar ships currently take a ship out of the fight with 1/2 sensor damps. This is seen heavily used on logi. Also note the modules that increases locked targets. All ewar ships should be able to completely disable at least 2 ships from the fight. If not, there wouldn't be too much of a point to them. The falcon can have 6 jammers (assuming you want to fit a prop mod) so that is 2 to 3 ships that can be jammed. In a small group engagement (5 people?) yes this will proabably kill them all. Just like RIGHT now, a falcon uncloaking in a small group engagement is going to cost the fight of said enemy small group.

Zan Shiro wrote:
so basically jammers only hurt t3 with this since they have a 5 target hardcoded limit. How is this better than current jams where if you spend the time in electronics skills, fit the right mods/rigs, and take ship skill to 5 you actually do something to a bs pilot who can load up tons of target locks?


I'll keep my random chance thank you...kind of why I trained recon and caldari BS 5 (well this and golem, that I then did not like so rokh resist bonus was next reason....but ccp is gimping that in BS tiericide to 4% instead of 5%...so now second reason is widow when/if I actually head back to pvp).


I hadn't actually looked at the t3 sensor strength till now. How this is going in my head though is that, if you have low sensor strength now, your screwed against ecm. No ifs ands or buts. If these changes are implemented, if you have too little max lock targets, your probably screwed.

The numbers should probably be changed for the my suggested jammers though... maybe a little less. The main goal would be where, like most other ewar, 2 EWAR modules completely stops a ship. At the same time, fitting enough counter to this should remove the EWAR affect to a near 100%.

Want some pvp help? Like to fly small and fast frigates? Then join the in game channel Tenori_Tigers!

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#11 - 2013-04-13 22:37:48 UTC
They should allow passive targeters to allow one unjammable target lock, since those modules are using *visual* targeting systems to lock---they are essentially looking out the window. Just make it so that the one slot it allows under ECM drops alot but can be reaquired without waiting for the ECM cycle to end.

Or just leave it alone, its frustrating when it happens to you, but its not actually OP.
Bria Veril
Tears of the Dead
#12 - 2013-05-19 22:02:13 UTC
ECM is both broken and workable as it is. But it really could be much better.


Real fast, ECMs use sensor str to knock out a ships targeting.

Change the way its calculated.

sensor str = # of target locks possible for that ship.
ECM removes sensor str, removing the total # of locks possible

If enough ecm or ecm modules are used on a single target , he can no longer lock any targets.

*ECCM would improve your sensor str, but still wont increase the # of target locks your ship has for its total.. but does make it much harder to lose all its sensor str / target locks )

ships with naturally higher sensor str would of course benefit from this more, but they are already harder to knock out with ECM.


very fast comparison

ship 1 has 38 sensor str total of 7 targets locked. 38 / 7 = 5.4

every 5.4 sensor str removed = 1 less target he can lock

falcon targets said ship with 3 ECM modules , ship specific. but he has crap skills
each ecm removes a total of 9 sensor str, ship 1 still has 12 sensor str = he can still lock 2 targets.

same ship with a ECCM module = 72 sensor str. 72 / 7 = 10.28

10.28 ecm is required to remove one of his target locks now. Much harder to ECM him out of the fight. A well skilled Falcon or Scorpion could still do it though , if he had the right ECM modules.




Yes its 100% ecm , but at the same time if balanced , makes ECM better and more limited at the same time.








Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#13 - 2013-05-19 22:20:54 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
They should allow passive targeters to allow one unjammable target lock, since those modules are using *visual* targeting systems to lock---they are essentially looking out the window. Just make it so that the one slot it allows under ECM drops alot but can be reaquired without waiting for the ECM cycle to end.

Or just leave it alone, its frustrating when it happens to you, but its not actually OP.


Trading a mid slot for the ability to counter ECM. This isn't the worst idea in this thread, and might be suitable for further refining.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#14 - 2013-05-20 16:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Doctorkaba wrote:

ECM has a 100% chance of having a less than 100% chance of doing something... sure. I would like ECM to have a set affect, not a chance to do its jam (at the expense of some OPness of course)


This is incorrect. ECM can have a 100% chance to work. You need to get your jam strength stronger then his sensor strength. If your opponent is not using ECCM, you can accomplish this against the majority of the smaller ships in the game.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.