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Problems with exploration, I hope Odyssey addresses some of these.

Author
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-04-12 13:46:58 UTC
Quote:
"Space...is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."


- Douglas Adams


I've been playing this game for a while, and the only PvE aspect that I ever really found a huge interest in was exploration. However, with each iteration it always turns into a letdown.

The problem: Current exploration is nothing mroe than finding a dungeon.

By dungeon I mean it's a site. Find location, kill rats, aquire loot. Rinse, repeat.

Sure there are cute little blurbs of things, Talocan items, etc... but nothing that just screams "you went out and beyond and discovered something"

There are several other things lacking:

There's no feeling of actually being lost, or in deep space

Every site is a quick probe away. Some people in my alliance can resolve an entire system within 5-8 minutes, and at a minimum with a single scan can tell you exactly what each signature is and what the rewards are. In k-space, you're still there, in a local system. You're not out in the fringes, you're not far from civilization.

Right now, deep space probing is just a larger range. Perhaps it's time that deep space probes actually go into deep space. Now there's several things to address. CCP doesn't want deep, deep safe spots anymore so none of these sites can be bookmarked. Who cares why just that you can go there but going back is not really possible. Not deadspace accel gates, they ruin immersion.

I want it so that you're hundreds of AU from the star. it's dark and that star is just a slightly brighter speck than it usually is. To be far from anything with just you and your ship, one made for exploration. You have your resources on hand and can't just hop back and grab a salvager/extra cargo/whatever. You bring your tools with you.

Yes, this can be a solo venture.. this is an MMO however just as missions are per-person specific so can some of these opportunities.


Site difficulty is measured in security status

This is often the risk/reward formula in progress, however why is the difficulty of hostile encounters directly measured? Want noobs to go into the depths to see what they can find? Make some of the easier sites available in those low/null/J sec systems. The rewards don't need to match up to the harder ones but it can motivate a budding explorer that if they trek way out to the fringes of the galaxy they will be able to accomplish things.

Mix it up some, randomize and give some rare rewards in easier sites.. I'm talking big loot, big finds. Imagine a 6 month old noob finding some kind of old Talocan item that an NPC museum would purchase for millions of ISK, maybe even a few hundred million. Sure that find wouldn't come often but it would keep them searching for the next, even it it took weeks or months.


It's episodic, and nothing to actually discover

Probe site. Warp to site. Clear rats/sleepers. Hold trigger. Hack can. Salvage. Bring in alt. Rinse, repeat.

This is all a site is. It's just a mission of a different type. Give us a mystery to solve. Clues. Things that point to other areas to find. Create storyline arcs. Change the crap job of hacking little cans to actually hacking alien models. It should be immersive. Give exploration missions. Make w-space ones really hard, as things may reference another J-system that a person might not find for a long, long time- or better yet that person may talk with other players, and try and put puzzle pieces together. The opportunities are endless.

We need a dedicated exploration ship. Faction Sisters vessles from frigate to maybe cruiser size, perhaps larger. Make them survivable. Make it so people don't need a combat ship and alt with a hacking vessel. Exploration shouldn't be a "bonus" to a site it should be a profession that someone can do. This wouldn't be a combat vessel but it should be fairly tough. It should be able to survive prolonged time away from stations, POSs, or what have you. It should be able to defend itself against NPCs. Yes, harder sites would probably need some armed escort.

This can open things up to having more dangerous and damage-causing nebulae. Things that would keep some ships wary but others built to at least handle it.


tl;dr: let us truely get lost into the unknown.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#2 - 2013-04-12 16:10:46 UTC
Wow, just Wow + all the things

Great Idea, love it tonnes!

Space IS big, to have it all mapped, listed and explored it silly, like Monty Python silly.

Give us the chance to get lost in space and drift around between systems where we may not see another player for days on end.

Give us the ability to spend 4-6 hours to move from one system to another nearby system without using a jump gate! ( randomized so its not a fixed route )

It would let us find old destroyed fleets from era's gone by, or stumble upon a Serpentis capital fleet by accident.

Make space big and scary !! Right now it is scary due to moro.. gankers who think killing bystanders is 'leet "PvP" in some form.

And above all, ask us how to do it, crowd source ideas for sites, complexes and missions. Let the people that love this game help make it better.

Don't like carebears? If you think genocide will remove the ~75% of the player base that fits that description then by all means go nuts.
Luke Hammarskjold
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-04-12 20:11:01 UTC
Really like your idea. I also don't get the "lost in space" feeling and this would certainly help it.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#4 - 2013-04-12 21:19:15 UTC
+1 for nice post and words although unfortunately I don't see it coming anytime soon, not in that "lost in space" kind of way. At very least you are always in connection with your corp/alliance, chat rooms are OP :)

But maybe at least we will get key binding for "Analyze" button?

Invalid signature format

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2013-04-12 21:36:03 UTC
Great post!

+1

.

Thorian Crystal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-04-12 22:01:41 UTC
So Eve is small after all. If you arn't in high sec, then you are in eg. null system that has it's residents.

Deep space is w-space, I think. If you wander enough you end up into higher C-levels. They are more difficult too, though, and you might bump into someone there.
Ordellus
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-04-12 22:39:49 UTC
The whole idea you have is awesome.

I don't think it will happen, considering Eve is really just a bunch of instances (even though they claim it's not). You can't really explore between the systems b/c they aren't really connected. You just vanish from one system (instance) and reappear in another system. You don't travel anywhere, you just stop being in one place and start being in another.

Such a shame, b/c having the universe actually be one giant universe instead of a bunch of systems that you are able to teleport between would be something to write home about.
Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#8 - 2013-04-15 12:41:10 UTC
Try a wormhole with out those map sites. you can feel pretty damn lost in there -_-

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-04-15 12:52:26 UTC
Job Valador wrote:
Try a wormhole with out those map sites. you can feel pretty damn lost in there -_-


Do you not see my alliance name? Blink

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

shattered hands
ISK Training Enterprise
#10 - 2013-04-16 07:03:32 UTC
+1
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#11 - 2013-04-16 11:32:52 UTC
I'd like to see those Jovian ship hulls getting some more love. Make them sisters faction specific and require significant LP/equivalent.

Change them up and make them have bonuses NO OTHER ship has, such that they can find sites that are super specific to explorers.

TO balance, make the ships themselves scannable, none of this off-grid unscannable bullshit. You might be running the site but you're still in a ship and a dedicated pirate suitably equipped should be able to find you.

As for the rewards.. hard to say. If exploration for the sake of exploration is really your priority, maybe mix in some extremely rare ship BPCs or something. I think it would be really cool to see a jovian ship with powerlevels approaching tournament prize ships enter the battlefield. The drama that would ensue would be epic.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-04-16 12:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
The ship

I was messing with some numbers and such on what I'd like to see. I think the Gnosis should remain a unique ship (reference the special edition catalysts) for the anniversay, and instead have a SoE ship dedicated to exploration.

It would be something like this:

Cruiser class, 5/4/5 3T

Skills: SoE level I (maybe III and introduce a frigate for newer players)

Bonuses:

10% to scan probe strength, 99% cpu reduction in advanced probe launchers, they can use a specific probe that can pinpoint those sites. The skill reqs would be intensive, needing astrometrics V.

25% bonus energy turret damage
5% reduction in energy turret capacitor use

I can't really do PG/CPU and HP since...well, I suck at it.. but it shouldn't be strong. It's not meant to PvP in any way, only hold up against NPCs much in the same sort that a maurader can do for missions.

I chose energy turrets because of ammo concerns. Also, there are no real cross race laser ships, unless you include sansha and blood raiders.. sansha ships are shield tanked and blood raider ships rarely even use the energy turret bonus. I didn't want to go with a shield tank because

a) it's already done
b) it would be very taxing on the CPU and cap

The slot layout allows for weapon defense, plus 2 utility highs for probe launcher and salvager. I intentionally removed my original version from 6H because I feel people would fit a cloak on it and I don't think you should be able to hide a ship that's already going to be moderately difficult to find quickly.

The 3T with damage bonus is to prevent this ship from having a whole rack of weapons...I'm still on the fence about this, or making it a 4 turret 6 slot ship without the bonus. Thoughts?

Mids at 5 give room for prop mod, codebreaker, analyzer, and ship scanner/utility

Lows for plate/resist/armor repair amount. Notice it is unbonused. This isn't a PvP ship.

It would have a small sig radius for the size of the ship, however nothing to make it unscannable (this was actually fixed a while ago and no ship can become truely unscannable).

Unlike the Venture which has an inheret warp strength this won't have that. This ship can be hunted down and killed if the pilot isn't paying attention.

It's an armor tanker, because shields have passive regen. If this ship is deployed out there for days/weeks at a time it should be able to repair itself.

This would allow the ship to do lowsec mag/rad sites without a problem, and even null sites with good skills and proper piloting.


Eventually I'd like to see this along with a hive ship, one that can be a portable "base" for a moderately sized corp which can jump short distances and has an SMA/CHA/cone vat bay. The ship would need to reconfigure (think siege) to be used as such though.

The CVB won't work in w-space of course.


The sites


These wouldn't be the usual sites you're used to probing down and running like clockwork. There are no generic cans to look at. They will be dynamic in strength and composition. The dev team can inject lore and backstory into the sites.. some may be dangerous. They may be in a damage-inducing nebula (I'm thinking about the old 10/10 storm plexes), Maybe it's a ship stuck in the doldrums and unable to warp... and now you find yourself unable to warp also... so you need to find a solution, something in the area that could be causing it....or maybe it's a ship taken over by rogue drones that will attack. There might even be sites with absolutely nothing of value at all, or some that range in tens to hundreds of millions. The thing is there won't be a specific name for a specific series... so there's no way to blitz or min/max them.


I'd like to see wrecks of caravans that early pioneers took and fell upon tragedy. Long dead colonies. Talocan sites. Dead rogue drone hives. Fleet graveyards. Random derelict ships.

You will not be able to bookmark the sites.

Many of the sites might lead you to another system, or another wormhole. You might have to go to a specific cosmos agent in empire and talk to them to get more information. They might lead you to yet another system. The price isn't having a pimped out ship, it's not killing rats. It's putting the pieces of the puzzle together and taking the time to figure out the mystery. you might find items or ships logs that are completely useless for weeks unitl another site references them and you think "aha! this makes sense I know what to do!"

The probes


The probes have superior range and can pinpoint low signatures much faster- it would be possible to find these sites with regular probes but would take a max skilled pilot. combat probes could find the exploration ship but it would have the sig of a small cruiser and would take some time to pinpoint. Make these sites well outside the solar system. 100, 200 AU. I'd like it much more but the game itself has limitations.

This won't make the ship invulnerable at all since you can still scan those ranges with combats fairly quickly.


What CCP needs is someone to devote time to actually putting the stories together, coming up with the missions. Shame they're strapped at the moment.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#13 - 2013-04-18 10:07:36 UTC
Friendly bump because it is hard to get lost with eve-survival.org in browser :)

Invalid signature format

Aurora Fatalis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-04-18 11:48:20 UTC
What my friends and I do is we go into a wormhole with a covert fleet, bomb some things, go to the next hole, bomb some more, and keep at it until we find a different exit - usually deep null sec. Then - and this is the crux of it all - we avoid using the map. We have nothing to go on but remembering gate names in the hopes of finding a way home.

It gives you the Voyager feeling, and is really fun.

If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you?

Naomi Hale
#15 - 2013-04-18 12:01:56 UTC
+1/bump for any good exploration ideas like these, well presented Vincent Gaines.

EVE needs more depth and wonder in it's universe. It destroys the idea of discovery if you scan down a site and it's populated by pirates or debris from Empires, that just means you've stumbled upon an already discovered area.

Add some new assets for exploration. Unknown ruins of long dead civilisations, lost treasures or works of art that serve no practical purpose but could form a collection (for yourself or others), forgotten histories that elude to something big (lost historical derelict ships, Battle sites that contradict records, data and info Empires don't want known).

Right now exploration is all about finding something that could/can be found on the market and selling it, it's all about making Isk. That's not why I want to explore, I want to discover and uncover mysteries and history.

I remember vividly how disappointed I was when I first gained hacking and archaeology skills and it amounted to another module that you lock-on and use. I had visions of bringing space relics aboard my ship and returning them to stations to be analysed and researched. To unlock mysteries and secrets over time.

And the "Sisters of Eve" do need padding out. As one of the few factions that focuses on exploration (if not the only one) they need faction ships, modules and missions that focus more on exploration. Have ongoing missions to turn in completed sets of relics or data for Isk and LP. Have missions that use their humanitarian nature to scan down lost or stranded ships and rescue survivors or offer repairs. Scientific research missions to take teams of scientists to stellar phenomena and study them.

I become so confused with all this 'EVE 10 year anniversary' stuff and see how little depth the game has developed in that time. Over the last 10 years shooter-fest games like Halo and Mass Effect have developed more fleshed out universes than EVE has done (more novels also). It's the main reason I play EVE for two months, get bored, quit, forgotten how bored I was and come back six months later to repeat the process. If CCP offered more to their world they could easily get the money for the extra six months.

CCP have a Sci-Fi space MMO in a market that has few of them, but seem content to focus on the elements you can get in other MMOs, pvp, grind, mission running, crafting, player owned housing and structures. Space should offer limitless potential for gameplay ideas and should use the areas the others games simply can't achieve because of their setting.

EVE Online is a game I enjoy (sometimes love) with so much unrealised potential that it actually makes me sad.

Less Pew-Pew more Depth.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-04-29 14:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
with Fanfest over and the new minigame revealed, I have to state what I feel are good and bad:

Pros:

Arrow Hacking now is interactive. Awesome. I like the way you need to break into the wreck.
Arrow The idem you're loking at isn't really a can but an actual artifact. Maybe the art team has multiple models.
Arrow Removal of rats from exploration sites. They are always just a nusaince and not much more.

Cons:
Arrow The pinata is pointless. I suppose it's to encourage gameplay but it just makes it annoying and requires an alt to "catch them."
Arrow A lack of environmental effects.
Arrow The site locations are still the same, and with the new system scanner it's very easy to find them.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Sushi Nardieu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-04-29 15:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sushi Nardieu
I also don't like how a rank 5 and rank 8 skill get their effective nerfed to half of the original percentage.

Quote:
Astrometrics - 5% Reduced scan time, 5% reduced scan deviation and 5% increased scan strength per level
Astrometric Acquisition - Changes from 10% reduced scan time per level to 5.0% per level
Astrometric Pinpointing- Changes from 10% reduced scan deviation per level to 5.0% per level
Astrometric Rangefinding- Changes from 10% increased probe strength per level to 5.0% per level


Obviously I am biased because I have a scan character that has trained scanning perfection. However, since signatures are still not "EZ" mode straight away then this nerf will force players to spend more time scanning. Let's face it, we'd all like to get straight down to the PVP or PVE and actually fly your ship.

Not only that but in the current expansion Retribution 2013, a well-fit leadership Tech III cruiser with racial ECCM + racial sensor strength implants CANNOT be scanned down by perfect virtue-omega set scanner character. I've voiced this situation before and a DEV has responded stating that all ships can still be scanned down to 100%.

CCP have stated that everything can be scanned down and nothing is impossible to scan. It seems like CCP does not differentiate between theoretical impossibility and realistic impossibility. How long will a ship sit in space if combats are on D-scan for the last 2 minutes? Or longer even if your skills are "normal."

Don't make these valuable skills less valuable. They don't directly influence fights but they increase the potential of them. Potential of fights is a valuable thing in EVE because it creates content. It will indirectly reduce the amount of content EVE enjoys. "Enjoys" - I suppose that depends on which end of the turret you are on.

EVE is a game of seconds. This is why I have trained scanning skills. Please don't make them weaker.

As a wormholer, low-sec pirate and once a null-seccer who uses combat probes in daily EVE life. I am highly against it and I hope other players can voice their opinion.

The Guns of Knowledge 

Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#18 - 2013-04-29 16:39:01 UTC
Utility modules are problematic, I wish they had their own slots probably so that they would not take either pg or cpu.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-04-29 16:46:51 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Utility modules are problematic, I wish they had their own slots probably so that they would not take either pg or cpu.


This is an awesome idea... and I was going to reply at first with "why isn't this a thing?" until I relized the balance implications.

The turret slots are always a max limit, there is no minimum- so utility highs can be anywhere from 0-mix high. For mids it's always a tradeoff.


However, you have a point in that there is something like 5 exploration required modules, and by what I can tell they are all midslot. This means you either pick and choose or sacrifice something essential like a prop mod.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Space Wanderer
#20 - 2013-04-30 17:51:57 UTC
Sushi Nardieu wrote:
I also don't like how a rank 5 and rank 8 skill get their effective nerfed to half of the original percentage.

Quote:
Astrometrics - 5% Reduced scan time, 5% reduced scan deviation and 5% increased scan strength per level
Astrometric Acquisition - Changes from 10% reduced scan time per level to 5.0% per level
Astrometric Pinpointing- Changes from 10% reduced scan deviation per level to 5.0% per level
Astrometric Rangefinding- Changes from 10% increased probe strength per level to 5.0% per level




I missed it. Where did you find this information?
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