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[Odyssey] Counter to Proposed Amarr Changes (Don't ruin Amarr)
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Mr Hyde113
#1 - 2013-04-11 16:13:39 UTC
Dear CCP,

It seems that in your mission to re-balance ships for the Odyssey expansion, you have made some changes that hurt Amarr pilots more than they help. I want to outline the 4 major problems I see with the current posted changes and suggest what I, as a long time Amarr pilot, see as more useful changes.


Abaddon

CCP's Change: Armor Resistance Bonus lowered from 5% per level to 4% per level.

Problem: There was nothing wrong or overpowered about the Abaddon. Never in this game has there been such a random bonus value as 4%. The Abaddon already paid for its Damage and Tank with its cap issues.

My Suggestion: Leave the bonuses as they are on TQ. If you insist on hitting the Abaddon, consider lowering its 75 drone bandwidth to 50, which would reinforce its role as a Tanky Laser boat, while not ruining it.

Apocalypse

CCP's Change: 10% Laser Cap usage per level removed. 7.5% Laser Tracking Speed added.

Problem: The Apoc's main issue was fitting related, not bonus related. The removal of the 10% cap usage bonus will ruin the ship's role as a long range laser boat by making it as cap hungry as the Abaddon. The tracking on the Apoc's guns at its ranges is fine.

My Suggestion: Revert the Apoc to its current bonus set, and adjust its PWG and CPU to make fitting tachyons a more viable option without fitting mods.

Armageddon

CCP's Change: 5% Laser ROF and 10% Laser Cap usage per level removed. 10% Drone DMG/Hitpoints and 10% Energy Neut/Vamp range added.

Problem: Just like the Megathron, the Geddon has spent a decade establishing itself as the Amarr's high damage gun boat, with reasonable cap consumption. Dedicated Amarr pilots know that there really is not as much overlap as CCP Rise has suggested between the 3 Amarr BS, with each filling a different role. The Amarr do not need their own version of the Dominix, which the proposed Armageddon essentially is. Besides stepping on the Gallente's toes, the New Geddon only solves a problem that never existed. The neut range bonus is very random, and steps into very specialized territory which I believe the Curse and Bhaal already cover. Amarr pilots who have trained drones as a weapons system in the Dragoon/Arbitrator/Prophecy line will still have 125 drone bandwidth to reward them for their training. The Geddon must have its iconic 8 low slots.

My Suggestions: Revert the Geddon back to its old boni and slot layout. Instead focus on it's fittings, adding some CPU and/or PWG to let it use its slots properly.

or

Give the Geddon a 7/4/8 layout with the current TQ boni. Removing the utility high in exchange for a mid could give the geddon more flexibility in pvp for tackle and propultion.

Navy Harbinger

CCP's Proposal: 7/5/6 slot layout with 6 turrets and 10% dmg and 7.5% tracking. and 50m3 drone bay.

Problem: The Harbinger does not need a 5th mid slot. It makes no sense and does not fit the profile of the Amarr. The navy Brutix has 7 low slots, and so should the Navy harbinger. The ship does not need a tracking bonus. The removal of its cap usage bonus will make the thing cap out ridiculously fast.

My Suggestion: Change to a 7/4/7 Slot layout with the same boni as the harbinger, and added CPU and PWG. The t1 harbinger is mediocre at best, and needs its own fixes, but the Navy version should offer something better in return for the price. An extra lowslot would reinforce its role as an ARMOUR BC, and a return to its 10% cap bonus would make its gun's cap usage more than manageable with its 4 mids and some extra fitting.



I hope you will consider these revised changes or some iteration of them as a better fix for these ships. Please listen to what Amarr pilots actually need from their ships rather than ruining the flavor of the race and giving them things we never asked for.

I invite focused discussion on the above ship. Please stick to the ships and ship related discussions. Laser changes are a valid issue but should be discussed in another thread.

-Hyde
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
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#2 - 2013-04-11 16:38:10 UTC
+ 1 on everything except harbinger

it needs mid, and its OP with it, simple. althought another low i like that idea to.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#3 - 2013-04-11 16:47:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
To the Abaddon:

Well, to be honest, reducing it's bonus to 4% armor resistance per level seems reasonable. Makes all the guys with Amarr BS V right now feel like having Amarr BS IV. Which is already a very powerful bonus.

Apoc: Yeah, cool idea to give it the ability to fit oversized guns to it without fitting mods. Yes, Tachyons are oversized. No other weapon-group has a similar module to the Tach. It is able to reach the dps of shortrange guns while also being able to hit far beyond them. There are no '2000mm Artilleries' for Minmatar which you would propose to be fitted onto a Maelstrom without fitting mods.
Losing it's capacitor bonus surely makes it more caphungry. However, the tracking bonus is going to be insane. Think of it as a closerange BS now rather than a long range one. Might be a beast when facing AHACs, will see.

Geddon: I think the drone-bonus is unnecessary, however the neut range bonus is very interesting. It's going to be like a pre-odyssey Dominix, but on acid or something like that. I'm looking forward to it!



Oh, and i'm also looking forward for navy harb.
Mr Hyde113
#4 - 2013-04-11 21:01:36 UTC
@Flyinghotpocket:
Regarding the N.Harbinger
I don't see why any Amarr Laser focused ship needs more than 4 mids.
- Prop Mod
- Point/Sram
- Web
- Cap Booster

An extra lowslot would help the Harbinger actually have a tank, or fit more damage. The 5th mid is only there to compensate for the removal of the cap bonus, which is pointless.

@Syrias Bizniz:

Abaddon - If CCP chooses to nerf the 5% resistance bonus, I feel it should come coupled with an Armour 2.0 update so we have options. This would also involve taking any ship with a base 5% resistance bonus and taking it down to 4%, it cannot just be arbitrary. I still think that the Abaddon has never been OP, but rather that a lack of a viable alternative has seen it adopted as the "go-to" armour bs. With the proposed Megathron changes, I could certainly see variety being brought back to armour fleet bs.

Apoc - I disagree. Tachyons are not oversized guns. They are large turrets, not XL and should be fitted onto BS, which they are designed to be used on (hint hint Apoc has a range bonus, it is our natual sniper). Comparing Tachyons and 1400s is only valid in that they are they largest of their respective long range gun trees. The loss of the cap bonus is HUGE. Apocs are hitting at ranges where tracking is not an issue anyway. The main distinction between the abaddon and the apoc has always been:
*Abaddon: It is suited to close range because it is tankier, no range bonus, and no cap bonus. Engagements at this range (brawls) are generally shorter timewise becuase DPS is higher and tackle is present
*Apoc: it is suited to long range because it has a range bonus and can keep shooting through long range engagements becuase of its cap bonus.

Geddon- No real Amarr pilot can stand by and watch a ship that for 10 years has been our go to close range dps machine get turned into a drone-neuting hybrid. From what I have gleaned from the Gallente thread, they feel that this steps on the Dominix's niche role and I agree. This ship has had a role and will still have a role if it is just left how it is. The only thing it needs is more cpu and maybe grid. The neut range bonus is highly overrated, and out of place. We NEED our 8 lowslot beast. A geddon with missiles or God forbid, AUTOCANNONS is what this is going to lead to if we dont speak up.

Navy Harbinger: Take another look at the fittings and try play around with what you might want on it. It cant fit anything worth making it better than a Regular harby, which is awful to begin with. No 5th mid, it is out of place and is only there to solve the problem caused by removing the cap bonus.


- Hyde
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#5 - 2013-04-11 21:51:09 UTC
yeah rather then making the working geddon this drone monster they should make the new 4th BS the drone monster
the geddon doesn't even look like it would use drones ffs

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#6 - 2013-04-11 21:52:53 UTC
Not Amaar, but the Rokh nerf is equally BS, as is the lack of a 25% resist bonus on the faction drake.

Post your advanced battleship ideas here!
Wenthrial Solamar
Brand Newbros
#7 - 2013-04-12 03:24:43 UTC
Good stuff, I hope they listen.
Rina Kondur
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#8 - 2013-04-12 09:17:38 UTC
I completely agree. I was very disappointed with all of the initial proposed Battleship changes and then they started fixing the other races while seemingly ignore most of the complaints regarding the Amarr line. We've lost almost all our hulls bonused for cap usage and we're left with crippled ships that struggle to fit a tank with the only usable lasers we have available to us. Not to mention you now literally need a cap booster on almost every Amarr ship. Hopefully we get bigger cargo bays.

Nothing really needed drastically changed. Our ships all served a purpose and there was no over lap like CCP Rise likes to talk about. Now we're left with a pretty sad line of ships. Not to mention the Armeggadon was changed so drastically it's lost all it's original use as a heavy DPS ship.

I don't even want to talk about the Navy Harbinger. That thing is not what I imagine at all when I think Amarr faction ships. Terrible fitting, terrible cap, just plain disappointing. I really hope CCP takes a look at it again. It's horrible when you compare it to the other faction ships and really is no better than the normal Harbinger.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-04-12 10:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
i think you're missing the reason they have made the change to resist ... its too OP and makes rep bonus less effective.
-Although they need to improve armour reps reducing resist on other ships make gal rep bonus more viable.

On the abbadon i think they could remove a turret to allow for a nos and buff its damage bonus a little
- better cap recharge aswell

Apoc
-remove neut bonus its OP especially at T1 level its a battleship after all leave e-war to smaller ships/T2
-give it a laser damage bonus in its place
-remove missile launchers

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#10 - 2013-04-12 10:52:18 UTC
Agree completle about Abaddon and Apoc.
About Geddon i think it must be like big fat prophesy with resist bonuses instead of neuts one.
Navy harbinger - have no idea :) I prefer Absolution.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
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#11 - 2013-04-13 01:32:00 UTC
I do agree that another low would help its tank but what more is there to help with a 1600 2 eanms and a suitcase. i beleive the 5th mid helps it

most harbingers always go with
cap injectors
point/scram
Eccm
prop mod

eccm usually is fit on harbinger because ec 300's are OP as ****. but with 5th mid it wont have to worry about lack of tackle it will have the holy trinity

prop
scram
web
eccm
cap injector

it will still maintain is already strong tank and with more grid it will be able to fit the legendary heavy pulse for maximum dps. Amarr ships do work well in fleet, and in a fleet, everybody hates it when the person with the point gets jammed and the target warps off.

i just dont think the brutix should be going the route CCP wants it to go.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro