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Battleship Tiericide == ninja PvE nerf?
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Doctor Ape MD
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-04-11 17:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ape MD
DarthNefarius wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Things are Awesome for PVE'rs right now, or have you not noticed all the Pirate Battleships in incursions fleets lol.





If CCP 'touches' the Navy Battleships like they 'touched' the T1 BS's all you'll see in Incursions are is Pirate Faction BS's, Marauders, logi's & T3's (eg: no more T1's & Navy BS's ) it'll make breaking into incursions an INCREDIBLE hump for those newbies to incursions


Based on the last few paragraphs of this dev blog, it looks like they will definitely be messing with Navy Battleships.

And I think the Amarr ships in particular are taking a PvE nerf, at least as far as a newer player is concerned. Cap is already a problem for anyone using Amarr ships to run missions, and they are taking away the cap bonus from the most new player friendly Amarr mission running ship (Apoc).
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#42 - 2013-04-11 18:18:41 UTC
Doctor Ape MD wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Things are Awesome for PVE'rs right now, or have you not noticed all the Pirate Battleships in incursions fleets lol.





If CCP 'touches' the Navy Battleships like they 'touched' the T1 BS's all you'll see in Incursions are is Pirate Faction BS's, Marauders, logi's & T3's (eg: no more T1's & Navy BS's ) it'll make breaking into incursions an INCREDIBLE hump for those newbies to incursions


Based on the last few paragraphs of this dev blog, it looks like they will definitely be messing with Navy Battleships.

And I think the Amarr ships in particular are taking a PvE nerf, at least as far as a newer player is concerned. Cap is already a problem for anyone using Amarr ships to run missions, and they are taking away the cap bonus from the most new player friendly Amarr mission running ship (Apoc).


Armour Incursion fleets been taking it on the chin ever since the Escalation nerf & it keeps getting worse & worse Cry
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#43 - 2013-04-11 18:46:41 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

(snip
But it is an obvious trend by CCP of nerfing PVE. I don’t believe it is intentional, so much as reactionary. And I certainly hope the trend stops soon or the only mission runners in the game will be the ones that didn’t get into an Incursions fleet.


I beleive this PvE nerfing is intentional and the roots of he intention was sown in CCP Soundwave's Ten Ton Hammer interview were he threatened an across the board 10% reduction in bounties. Instead of a ground shaking Jita monument shoot inspiring single event though what we got here is a slow creep NINJA style PvE nerf. The only ones not affected are the WH sleeper farming residents and those in carriers running Forsakin' Hubs.


That's just standard Tinfoli hattery with a dose of "omg high sec" parania tied in. It's non sense. The Abbadon and Apoc are gonna be just fine for incursions as will the mega and hype. The Raven isn't changing much and it's one of the most popular noob incursion ships along with the Tempest and Mael

I'm starting to think you just need something to be afraid of. After the Battleship revamp, if incursion fleets stil accept and routinely use T1 battleships, will you come back to this thread and admit your fears were unfounded?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#44 - 2013-04-11 18:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm starting to think you just need something to be afraid of. After the Battleship revamp, if incursion fleets stil accept and routinely use T1 battleships, will you come back to this thread and admit your fears were unfounded?




If I see armour fleets stop bleeding numbers I'll admit my fears were unfounded, I'm not seeing that & its been getting progressively worse

The Mega losing a low for an middle slot made it into more of a shield ship ( that I hear has changed )
And the new Navy Harbi getting an extra mid slot will make shield Harbi's now viableQuestion not likey
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#45 - 2013-04-11 18:52:04 UTC
vyshnegradsky wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
My first impression as an Incursion armour FC & looking at the GALL MEGA & AMARR BS's is that I'll be less likey allow such ships in fleets & force them into faction/NAVY BS'sAttention

Does the shield BS tiercide look less grim for Incursion runnersQuestion

===========================

This rebalance thing only for PvP?


In a PvP game, the ships should be balanced around PvP, not PvE.

I thought EVE was a diplomacy simulator with rock sucking attached.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#46 - 2013-04-11 18:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
DarthNefarius wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm starting to think you just need something to be afraid of. After the Battleship revamp, if incursion fleets stil accept and routinely use T1 battleships, will you come back to this thread and admit your fears were unfounded?




If I see armour fleets stop bleeding numbers I'll admit my fears were unfounded, I'm not seeing that & its been getting progressively worse


Since when? I didn't have any problems getting into Armor fleets in the last few weeks, hell, i've been wait listed so many times I went and got a Fleet Tempest so i could do shields.

How is (for example) an 8 low slot Mega or 7 low slot Hype supposed to magically suck for Armor fleets? The only forseeable casualty for armor is the 'geddon, ad people can just use Apocs or 'Baddons instead.

I'm asking again, other than the 'Geddon, what oh so monstrous change is going to mean "NO" Tech1 BS is going to be usable in incursions or other PVE?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#47 - 2013-04-11 19:07:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm asking again, other than the 'Geddon, what oh so monstrous change is going to mean "NO" Tech1 BS is going to be usable in incursions or other PVE?


CAP issues are going to get worse meaning those amarr ships will need more level 5 guards & the FC has to take it into account. Only balance will be if apoc's will actually be able to hit a renyens & eysters w/o 2 webs on it ( I doubt they will unless BS is trained to V )

Incursions' Escalation nerf VG cursier HP increases SEVERELY affected armour fleets & now they can pretty much only contest in NCO's ( they used to be able to contest in NMC's ). Armour fleets are all but extinct in HQ's & in assaults are an oddity
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#48 - 2013-04-11 19:24:13 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm asking again, other than the 'Geddon, what oh so monstrous change is going to mean "NO" Tech1 BS is going to be usable in incursions or other PVE?


CAP issues are going to get worse meaning those amarr ships will need more level 5 guards & the FC has to take it into account. Only balance will be if apoc's will actually be able to hit a renyens & eysters w/o 2 webs on it ( I doubt they will unless BS is trained to V ).


Those issues can be worked around, but frankly, Amarr BS's aren't the only ones used by noobs in Armor fleets.

[qute[
Incursions' Escalation nerf VG cursier HP increases SEVERELY affected armour fleets & now they can pretty much only contest in NCO's ( they used to be able to contest in NMC's ). Armour fleets are all but extinct in HQ's & in assaults are an oddity
[/quote]

Thats an issue of Armor vs Shields, not an issue with the battleships. Shiled ships are just better for PVE across the board with armor having a lot of advantages in PVP (if it weren't for Drakes I don't know that you'd see a lot of shield pvp above small gang size, it's just how it is).

You make it sound like some evil conspiracy by CCP to kill Armor incursions when it's simply not, with the exception of the "geddon, none of the changes are gonna kill armor.

Hell, the new Amarr Navy BC might have more HP than some battleships, we might see Incursion Armor Doctrine shift to include those. You never know till the changes hit. not saying the changes are automatically good, but basicallydoomsaying about the end of the Armor world is at best premature.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-04-11 22:22:20 UTC
Sounds like some people need to get past using cookie cutter fits and learn to adapt.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#50 - 2013-04-11 23:30:44 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Sounds like some people need to get past using cookie cutter fits and learn to adapt.


At first noobs need cookie cutters then adjust to thier lack of skills of couse
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#51 - 2013-04-11 23:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Jenn aSide wrote:


Thats an issue of Armor vs Shields, not an issue with the battleships. Shiled ships are just better for PVE across the board with armor having a lot of advantages in PVP (if it weren't for Drakes I don't know that you'd see a lot of shield pvp above small gang size, it's just how it is).

You make it sound like some evil conspiracy by CCP to kill Armor incursions when it's simply not, with the exception of the "geddon, none of the changes are gonna kill armor.

Hell, the new Amarr Navy BC might have more HP than some battleships, we might see Incursion Armor Doctrine shift to include those. You never know till the changes hit. not saying the changes are automatically good, but basicallydoomsaying about the end of the Armor world is at best premature.


Before the escaltion nerf there was alot more balance in Incursions between the issues of Armor vs Shields...the iterations since are handicapping them (Armour fleets) for the worse with Amarr armour fittings is my initial reaction. Do amrmour fitting experts on Gallente, Minnie, Caldari feels the same?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#52 - 2013-04-12 02:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
DarthNefarius wrote:


Before the escaltion nerf there was alot more balance in Incursions between the issues of Armor vs Shields...the iterations since are handicapping them (Armour fleets) for the worse with Amarr armour fittings is my initial reaction. Do amrmour fitting experts on Gallente, Minnie, Caldari feels the same?


I'd go back and reread the gallente thread update (first page), as they've completely backflipped on the gunboats.

Except for the irritating issue that the pve gallente pilots are likely to be dominix, shield, projectile pilots, the new proposed mega is surely a reasonable incursion runner - but its been clearly tuned to be more dps oriented and less like an anchor - that seems ok to me, as you only need 1 anchor, and you can get a different ship for that 1 person.

Also its overall statting leads towards sustained tank/gank much more (no utility slot, less ehp, extra low), so its probably a better mission runner than the current mega too - more of the stats budget is relevant.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-04-12 14:45:37 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
vyshnegradsky wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
My first impression as an Incursion armour FC & looking at the GALL MEGA & AMARR BS's is that I'll be less likey allow such ships in fleets & force them into faction/NAVY BS'sAttention

Does the shield BS tiercide look less grim for Incursion runnersQuestion

===========================

This rebalance thing only for PvP?


In a PvP game, the ships should be balanced around PvP, not PvE.


In a game where you can do both, should they be balanced for both?


Only if PvE is brought closer to PvP. :)


I'd go with this as an acceptable answer - without nerfing existing content too much. (a little would work).

IMO - using PvE missions more like "PvP simulators" wouldn't be a bad thing to design for vs how they work. Unfortunately building such things as this would be putting dev efforts on "PvE" so many wouldn't care for the idea of making a lot of this stuff possible.

Examples:

  • Add missions that have you tackle ships and such. NPE/L1's where you use a frigate to tackle a BS. L2's that have you using a scram vs point or a BS will MJD to range and warp before you can close range again (fail mission - yes actually add conditions to *FAIL* a mission. If you can lose at PvP, there's no reason not to have that for PvE. - just pay better for risking it.)

    • Get people over that "bigger is better" nonsense by showing them a battleship hits issues with small targets - by making them the small target - of course "0 angular velocity" on a BS is liable to be a painful lesson but limiting the NPE version to rookie ships means "free ship" and well worded warnings, plus overview setting changes ...

  • kill the old "bigger is better" PvE L1=frig, L2=cruiser, L3=BC, L4=BS, L5=carrier/"bring friends" approach. instead make things that will require use of smaller hulls (such as the tackling above or flying EW support of flying logi support...) - more actual PvP style skills vs just "bigger/more expensive gunships".

  • Make more finesse missions so "vets" get more PvP style options that take skill (tackle the equivalent of a TE/Sebo AC packing nana-cane -- sneak in with a covert cloak, recon an area, drop a jammer, get out before getting popped...).

  • Missions that use the Fleet window - so you have to learn how to click primary, need repairs, the watch window as you do logi support, etc.

Things that have people using a variety of skills that are more for PvP than currently used for PvE so new people get used to using those skills and aren't quite so unprepared when they do find themselves in PvP situations.

Again, much less of the current "loot pinata" style combat missions and more where you need actual flying skills and abilities that cross over to PvP.

Yeah I could get behind the idea of these kinds of changes, especially if such missions paid better than the stock ones we currently have.
Veronica Kerrigan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-04-13 14:39:57 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

If you give lasers damage selection, who would use anything else? You can change crystals instantly (where as changing ammo/missiles type takes 10 seconds, 5 for hybrids), and lasers never have to stop to reload.

ALL pvp would be lasers so you wouldn't need to carry ammo (leaving more room for captured loot. ALL pve would be laser because even if you made other weapons stronger to compensate, they'd still have ammo costs which lower pve profits etc etc.

This is a really good example as to why EVE ships are and should be balanced for pvp 1st and for most, balancing ships to kill computer generated NPCs leads to ships that real players would abuse, forcing ccp to rebalance stuff all the time.

The only ships that should be balanced with pve in mind at Marauders and Mining ships. Maybe one day ccp could add smaller Marauder type pve ships (call them "Bandits" or something lol).


This is a good example how PvP hurts PvE.
Also when I did PvP with some friends I flew Domi/Ishtar/Curse. I used to carry 2 types of drones for resistance purposes.
So whenever I saw low damage I changed my drones and usually there was an increase of damage.
Changing drones takes around 4-6 sec (assuming you're on a close range), which is very fast, yet nothing is overpowered.

I'm sure there are many solutions to give lasers damage selection without making them overpowered.


Lasers are ostensibly the best turret in terms of everything except damage type. Pulses not only have the longest range of the short range turrets, it is all in optimal, unlike projectiles which operate in falloff. They have solid dps numbers, and the most powerful long range tech 2 ammo, scorch. Lasers also have the highest "caliber" long range turret, the Tachyon Beam laser. Tachs have very similar dps to Megapulse, but can apply that dps out to 40km of optimal. Their only disadvantage is that with proper planning, you can always mitigate their damage.
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