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t2 BPOs....
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Lucy Alfrir
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#21 - 2011-09-30 17:28:07 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Any t2 BPO in game is going to be here for a long time to come. Most of the people with one aren't dumb enough to transport it anywhere....


See now this gives me an idea,

Maybe they could just make it that t2 BPO's need to move to a system with different sec status every week, or they degrade somehow.

;D
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-09-30 19:23:36 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Delayed annoyance : You are aware that the problem really is one of perception, aren't you ? For all items where demand is high, it's invention that sets the price, not T2 BPOs. Only for low demand (low volume) items does the price go below invention break-even, and very quickly drops to barely BPO manufacture breakeven - for those items, removing T2 BPOs without radically improving invention would basically mean they traded volume would go even lower, maybe even practically as good as vanishing altogether.


I agree that it is invention that sets the price.

However, a bpo can undercut the profit range of a i-bpc and still be profitable, so those selling through i-bpc's must wait until the bpo item has sold off the market. Meaning they're unable to compete in a market with prices that are normally determined by themselves.

Ok, so don't cut t2 bpo's out of the game, but allow i-bpc's to be more competitive with them, while still allowing the bpo's to have a slightly larger profit margin, so that all the isk they've put into their bpo isn't for not.

It's not a matter of insurance payout vs. cost. That is just a possible positive for the players. The real issue is bpo's being able to under cut any market with little to no competition.

Even if the prices of items do end up dropping, it won't be enough for the player to cover the loss of a t2 ship.

Take a golem for example. If you insure a golem, it'll be for around 80 mil. The golem cost around 750 mil.
That's a massive loss to the player.

If the price of a golem does end up dropping due to this system, then VERY LOWEST it could EVER possibly get is 600 mil, if that. Which after insurance is still a massive loss of over 500%.

So, it's not like this change in the system would allow players to get themselves blown up and still have it covered by insurance.

Hell, most t1 bs's aren't even fully covered by insurance.

This system is just to allow i-bpc's to be more competitive with t2 bpo's.
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#23 - 2011-09-30 23:09:55 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Snip


I agree that it is invention that sets the price.

However, a bpo can undercut the profit range of a i-bpc and still be profitable, so those selling through i-bpc's must wait until the bpo item has sold off the market. Meaning they're unable to compete in a market with prices that are normally determined by themselves.

Ok, so don't cut t2 bpo's out of the game, but allow i-bpc's to be more competitive with them, while still allowing the bpo's to have a slightly larger profit margin, so that all the isk they've put into their bpo isn't for not.

It's not a matter of insurance payout vs. cost. That is just a possible positive for the players. The real issue is bpo's being able to under cut any market with little to no competition.

Even if the prices of items do end up dropping, it won't be enough for the player to cover the loss of a t2 ship.

Take a golem for example. If you insure a golem, it'll be for around 80 mil. The golem cost around 750 mil.
That's a massive loss to the player.

If the price of a golem does end up dropping due to this system, then VERY LOWEST it could EVER possibly get is 600 mil, if that. Which after insurance is still a massive loss of over 500%.

So, it's not like this change in the system would allow players to get themselves blown up and still have it covered by insurance.

Hell, most t1 bs's aren't even fully covered by insurance.

This system is just to allow i-bpc's to be more competitive with t2 bpo's.


Whether t2 BPOs can undercut the invented BPCs market price or not matters little as t2 BPOs produce such a small amount of the overall t2 market that it would be like me selling a single faction mod undermarket price, it wont affect anyone else because it is just a small drop in the ocean.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Laechyd Eldgorn
Avanto
Hole Control
#24 - 2011-10-01 11:44:34 UTC
old but valid

t2 bpo's cause every kind of ****** up problems

i.e. invention costs are variable and it only creates fixed crappy me/pe prints while bpo can be researched and is not affected by invention costs which can be pretty high, not to mention all ******* trouble going through with invention.

producing a lot of stuff from bpo is remarkably cheaper than through invention, we're not talking about small marginal gain there. you can make a lot of money just by copying print. hell it's many times more than builder gets profit even from selling **** made out of researched bpc.

i don't know what kind of mushrooms are you gais eating, even though i agree that great amount of t2 bpo's are less useful, some of them are very profitable.
Sigras
Conglomo
#25 - 2011-10-01 13:45:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
name any T2 BPO, I guarantee you could make more isk selling it and using that as seed capital for invention.

in fact, you'd have so much isk left over that you could buy a character to do the invention for you, so you wouldnt even have to train the skills or use one of your mains
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-10-31 10:54:39 UTC
UGWidowmaker wrote:
now why would i want my investment in t2 bpo to go out the drain ? i have about 300 bill in t2 bpo. refund that and i dont care! stopwhining and start buying up t2 bpo.. this debate is very old.



Well since you're in, can you please confirm you're loosing isk with your T2 production from those BPO's versus T2 bpc's via invention.

Some seem to say it's the case, some don't, what's your opinion on this point?
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
#27 - 2011-10-31 12:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadow Lord77
Strip them from the game! They're a menace!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2011-10-31 13:14:40 UTC
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
producing a lot of stuff from bpo is remarkably cheaper than through invention, we're not talking about small marginal gain there. you can make a lot of money just by copying print. hell it's many times more than builder gets profit even from selling **** made out of researched bpc.
Copying a T2 BPO is pretty much the worst way to make ISK unless you manage to find a consistently irrational buyer who is willing to buy stuff at vastly exaggerated prices (probably because he thinks his moon goo is free…).

And producing a lot of stuff from a BPO is still a very small amount of stuff compared to the volumes the inventors produce. They set the price, and it doesn't make much sense to try to buck the trend there, because it only means you make less money.
Joe Risalo wrote:
However, a bpo can undercut the profit range of a i-bpc and still be profitable, so those selling through i-bpc's must wait until the bpo item has sold off the market.
…or just buy the item in question and relist it at its proper price, thus making the BPO owner earn far less than he otherwise would. This teaches the BPO owner to stop being stupid and to try to undercut the vastly more common BPC-generated items and instead go with the flow.
Callic Veratar
#29 - 2011-10-31 18:52:20 UTC
You do have the option of putting up contracts for T2 BPOs (or buying the existing ones) and then trashing the prints when you get them. It may cost you billions to do it, but everyone needs a long term goal.

If you truly believe that it has that big of an effect on the market, the returns should more than make up the difference.

(Anyone know approximately how many T2 BPOs are out there? I've never seen data on it.)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-10-31 20:37:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
producing a lot of stuff from bpo is remarkably cheaper than through invention, we're not talking about small marginal gain there. you can make a lot of money just by copying print. hell it's many times more than builder gets profit even from selling **** made out of researched bpc.
Copying a T2 BPO is pretty much the worst way to make ISK unless you manage to find a consistently irrational buyer who is willing to buy stuff at vastly exaggerated prices (probably because he thinks his moon goo is free…).


While selling copies may be the worst way to make isk, it's still yet another way to make isk.

Quote:
And producing a lot of stuff from a BPO is still a very small amount of stuff compared to the volumes the inventors produce. They set the price, and it doesn't make much sense to try to buck the trend there, because it only means you make less money.

You may build 50 golems compaired to the 100's on the market, but you can undercut the 100's on the market by enough that no one else will attempt to undercut you because they'll lose isk. With enough research on the bpo's you can undercut them to the point were' it's not profitable for them and still be making a larger profit then they will at current costs.

Quote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
However, a bpo can undercut the profit range of a i-bpc and still be profitable, so those selling through i-bpc's must wait until the bpo item has sold off the market.
…or just buy the item in question and relist it at its proper price, thus making the BPO owner earn far less than he otherwise would. This teaches the BPO owner to stop being stupid and to try to undercut the vastly more common BPC-generated items and instead go with the flow.

What does it matter to the person selling the bpo item? They're still making more of a profit than you, so why would they be worried about you buying their sales and then raising the price on them?
I wanna compete with the person that keeps undercutting me, not buy them out.
What good is that gonna do anyway?
If they're smart they're waiting for you to buy them out so that they can put another one on the market after you re-market the one you already bought from them.

So not only did you have to just buy a ship and re-post is so that it was no longer competition, but the guy that undercut you just did it again with another ship. Wouldn't that suck?
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