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Roden Ships

First post
Author
Jeter Alta
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-04-08 20:13:35 UTC
The description for Tech II ships that come from Roden Shipyards is as follows:

"Unlike most Gallente ship manufacturers, Roden Shipyards tends to favor missiles over drones and their ships are generally faster than other Gallente ships in their class. They generally have a substantial amount of hull modification options but limited electronic systems..." There are a few variations of this touting the increased armor amount or the like.

Unlike their Khanid brethren, my gripe is that the Roden ships are split down the middle when it comes to the available launcher hardpoints on each of their respective hulls.

Let's take a look at them.

Enyo
1 Launcher Hardpoint
4 Turret Hardpoints
5 m3 drone bay

Ares
1 Launcher Hardpoint
2 Turret Hardpoints
0 m3 drone bay

Eris
4 Launcher Hardpoints
5 Turret Hardpoints
5 m3 drone bay

Phobos
5 Turret Hardpoints
0 m3 drone bay

Oneiros
2 Turret Hardpoints
50 m3 drone bay

Lachesis
3 Turret Hardpoints
3 Launcher Hardpoints
0 m3 drone bay

Granted, the argument could be that these are specialized ships and the need for a uniform high slot weapons configuration is frivolous. For example, when would you be fitting 2 launchers to an Oneiros instead of Remote Armor Reps? I digress. My point is that the ships remain true to their description when it comes to the other aspects of the hull's capabilities (increased armor, fast, low sensor strength in comparison with Duvolle and Creodron ships, small if not non-existent drone bay). Why not make the rest of the hull in line with the manufacturer's doctrine.

Are we supposed to fly these ships like the Cyclones of yesteryear? This bring up the questionable effectiveness of the synergy between Rails and Missile Launchers. I do, however, believe that a Blaster and Rocket/HAM compilation is relatively effective. There is also little motivation for the Gallente capsuleer to cross train into missiles if they do not see a return on their investment of time and skill points. Is losing a drone bay and gaining 1-2 launcher hardpoints worth it?

CCP, take a look at the Roden ships as you rebalance Tech II hulls and make them effective according to their roles and developer doctrine. You did it with the Khanid ships a while back, so I don't doubt that you can do it for the Roden iterations as well. With the lack of viable kiting setups in the Gallente ship repertoire, you can give them an option with the tech II hulls.

TL;DR - Give Roden ships moar missile launchers.
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#2 - 2013-04-08 20:57:08 UTC
Or change the Roden shipyard description and leave them as is
Martin0
Dorky Unicorns
#3 - 2013-04-08 21:02:38 UTC
Don't put missiles on my gallente ships.
If i wanted to use missiles i would have skilled caldari.

Don't dare to put missiles on the enyo or the phobos.

Don't homogenize the Amarr and Gallente even more.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-04-09 00:34:25 UTC
BadAssMcKill wrote:
Or change the Roden shipyard description and leave them as is


No. Change Khanid description and split their weapons.Big smile
Jeter Alta
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-04-09 01:12:52 UTC
Martin0 wrote:
Don't put missiles on my gallente ships.
If i wanted to use missiles i would have skilled caldari.

Don't dare to put missiles on the enyo or the phobos.

Don't homogenize the Amarr and Gallente even more.


That's a worthless argument if I've ever seen one. I'll admit, I love flying the Enyo, and the Phobos seems fine as well, but neither fit the developer description. Now, if both ships fielded the opportunity to fit either turrets or launchers, that would make more sense. Ships like the Lachesis see bonuses to missile rate of fire and yet still only have 3 launchers out of 5 hardpoints. Roden would then be an option of versatility rather than indecision.

This game rewards those who cross train. Take a look at the pirate faction ships, and the Khanid as well. If you are relegating yourself to Gallente=blasters only (God knows that rails are sub-optimal in combat) and its faults, then good luck to you.

Not only that, but giving a few Gallente Tech II hulls more launcher hardpoints does not homogenize them with the Amarr/Khanid, who specialize in short-ranged missile combat.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-04-09 03:25:16 UTC
My first thought was "don't take the balsters off my enyo!!!" but upon further consideration if I could get a split bonus... Having the choice the fit either 4 bonused blasters or 4 bonused rockets to the enyo would be nasty. I doubt that would happen. CCP doesn't seem to be giving bonuses out to hulls like candy but one can dream.
Kate Stenton
Foundation Enterprises
#7 - 2013-04-09 23:10:25 UTC
All true Gallente buy from CreoDron™ Blink
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#8 - 2013-04-10 09:15:16 UTC
Kate Stenton wrote:
All true Gallente buy from CreoDron™ Blink


or Duvolle Labs ;-)
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#9 - 2013-04-10 10:31:09 UTC
Yes indeed, Roden hulls, and to some other tech2 manufacturers don't make much sense.

We have some high-level plans on how we could potentially fix them once we are done with tech1 hulls. One option could consist in consolidating the Gallente Tech2 manufacturers as:


  • Duvolle: specialization on hybrid turrets
  • Creodron: specialization on drones (which means fixing the Eos and Sin for instance)
  • Roden: specialization on missiles


Obviously, that's to be taken with a grain of salt, as this is no way set in stone and there are still obstacles along the way. For example:


  • Is shuffling some tech2 Gallente hulls to use missiles really such a good idea?
  • Do missiles even matter on Roden hulls with a very specific role? (Oneiros, Eris, Lachesis)
  • Can a missile-based Gallente tech2 line even exist without overstepping on other missile lines? (Caldari, Minmatar, Khanid)


We'll get more opportunities to discuss that with the player base when we actually move to tech2 hull rebalancing.
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-04-10 10:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Solaris
What always amused me was the mention of poorer electronic systems when Roden put out the tackling interceptor, both interdictors, the logistics and the force recon for the Gallente.

Poor electronics indeed.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-04-10 11:07:20 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes indeed, Roden hulls, and to some other tech2 manufacturers don't make much sense.

We have some high-level plans on how we could potentially fix them once we are done with tech1 hulls. One option could consist in consolidating the Gallente Tech2 manufacturers as:


  • Duvolle: specialization on hybrid turrets
  • Creodron: specialization on drones (which means fixing the Eos and Sin for instance)
  • Roden: specialization on missiles


Obviously, that's to be taken with a grain of salt, as this is no way set in stone and there are still obstacles along the way. For example:


  • Is shuffling some tech2 Gallente hulls to use missiles really such a good idea?
  • Do missiles even matter on Roden hulls with a very specific role? (Oneiros, Eris, Lachesis)
  • Can a missile-based Gallente tech2 line even exist without overstepping on other missile lines? (Caldari, Minmatar, Khanid)


We'll get more opportunities to discuss that with the player base when we actually move to tech2 hull rebalancing.


The only other t2 armor missile line is Khanid, and they're only short range. So make Roden long range missiles? After fixing them first, of course.

Lachesis has guns, so why not hmls with range to match that ewar?

And I can see Eris with rockets, or light missiles (which can use a buff, btw). Atm, there's the Sabre, there's the other 2, then there's the Eris at the end. That should change.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#12 - 2013-04-10 11:08:16 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Can a missile-based Gallente tech2 line even exist without overstepping on other missile lines? (Caldari, Minmatar, Khanid)


  • - increased damage bonus for unguided missiles (more than Caldari or Amarr counter parts)
    - reduced missile range
    - agile but low EHP ships
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #13 - 2013-04-10 11:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Yes indeed, Roden hulls, and to some other tech2 manufacturers don't make much sense.

    We have some high-level plans on how we could potentially fix them once we are done with tech1 hulls. One option could consist in consolidating the Gallente Tech2 manufacturers as:


    • Duvolle: specialization on hybrid turrets
    • Creodron: specialization on drones (which means fixing the Eos and Sin for instance)
    • Roden: specialization on missiles


    Obviously, that's to be taken with a grain of salt, as this is no way set in stone and there are still obstacles along the way. For example:


    • Is shuffling some tech2 Gallente hulls to use missiles really such a good idea?
    • Do missiles even matter on Roden hulls with a very specific role? (Oneiros, Eris, Lachesis)
    • Can a missile-based Gallente tech2 line even exist without overstepping on other missile lines? (Caldari, Minmatar, Khanid)


    We'll get more opportunities to discuss that with the player base when we actually move to tech2 hull rebalancing.


    Well the Lachesis would benefit from missiles as their projection and damage is better than rails or blasters.
    Eris has missiles already it should really be a blaster ship i would have thought.
    And besides you would have to explain why they have a stealth bomber with missiles without roden shipyards. :P

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Roime
    Shiva Furnace
    #14 - 2013-04-10 11:26:55 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Yes indeed, Roden hulls, and to some other tech2 manufacturers don't make much sense.

    We have some high-level plans on how we could potentially fix them once we are done with tech1 hulls. One option could consist in consolidating the Gallente Tech2 manufacturers as:


    • Duvolle: specialization on hybrid turrets
    • Creodron: specialization on drones (which means fixing the Eos and Sin for instance)
    • Roden: specialization on missiles


    Obviously, that's to be taken with a grain of salt, as this is no way set in stone and there are still obstacles along the way. For example:


    • Is shuffling some tech2 Gallente hulls to use missiles really such a good idea?
    • Do missiles even matter on Roden hulls with a very specific role? (Oneiros, Eris, Lachesis)
    • Can a missile-based Gallente tech2 line even exist without overstepping on other missile lines? (Caldari, Minmatar, Khanid)


    We'll get more opportunities to discuss that with the player base when we actually move to tech2 hull rebalancing.


    I like the current trend of streamlining racial weapons so that every race has just two main weapon systems.

    Amarr - lasers and drones
    Gallente - hybrids and drones
    Caldari - hybrids and missiles
    Minmatar - projectiles and missiles

    Amarr missile ships are the anomaly here, but in general these feel balanced and the ships all seem to find their places. Training is easier with just two lines to train, and with that basic division all races have two distinct skill trees to train.

    Perhaps consider having tertiary weapon systems as either special versions (navy/pirate/something new).

    .

    Raven Solaris
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #15 - 2013-04-10 11:27:34 UTC
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:

    And besides you would have to explain why they have a stealth bomber with missiles without roden shipyards. :P


    I think if they did make Roden truly missile focused, there'd have to be a trade with Duvolle somewhere.

    ie. Enyo for Nemesis.
    Grideris
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #16 - 2013-04-10 12:36:12 UTC
    I honestly think you should drop missiles entirely (other than on stealth bombers, but that's a role thing) and go

    Roden: Railguns, more tanky
    Duvolle: Blasters, more ganky
    Creo Dron: MOAR DRONES! (Seriously, these guys should be drones, drones and more drones)

    Going missiles on Gallente kinda feels like sleeping with the enemy (The Caldari!). Mind you, going for the above list might require some shuffling around of ship manufactures, and it might not be a bad thing to do so if you do decide to go the Roden = missiles route (e.g. the Nemesis is an obvious missile ship)

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    Nova Fox
    Novafox Shipyards
    #17 - 2013-04-10 15:32:50 UTC
    Well the alternative solution is to play more into missile types, unfortunately there only seems to be 3 of them. FOFs which nobody wants to use, the Smart Missiles and Dumb Missiles.

    If I could develop it i would make fire and forget missiles that have similar function to the bomb in that they have to be forward launched and only acquire hostile targets in a cone in front of the ship. Make them decent long burn chase missiles or short burn high damage bombarding missiles and would fit better with the high speed nature of the ships.

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    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #18 - 2013-04-10 16:31:47 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Yes indeed, Roden hulls, and to some other tech2 manufacturers don't make much sense.

    We have some high-level plans on how we could potentially fix them once we are done with tech1 hulls. One option could consist in consolidating the Gallente Tech2 manufacturers as:


    • Duvolle: specialization on hybrid turrets
    • Creodron: specialization on drones (which means fixing the Eos and Sin for instance)
    • Roden: specialization on missiles


    Obviously, that's to be taken with a grain of salt, as this is no way set in stone and there are still obstacles along the way. For example:


    • Is shuffling some tech2 Gallente hulls to use missiles really such a good idea?
    • Do missiles even matter on Roden hulls with a very specific role? (Oneiros, Eris, Lachesis)
    • Can a missile-based Gallente tech2 line even exist without overstepping on other missile lines? (Caldari, Minmatar, Khanid)


    We'll get more opportunities to discuss that with the player base when we actually move to tech2 hull rebalancing.
    If you guys are going to do even the slightest hint of shuffling Gallente T2 hull colors around, for Pete's sake change the Nemesis to a Roden hull! IT IS A STEALTH BOMBER MISSILE SHIP!

    Ok, now that that's out of my system, although I dearly love my beautiful copper Enyo, I love her much more as a blaster boat, and so if that means she has to wear Duvolle colors, then so be it.

    Also, if you're going to make sweeping changes by adding in more missile boats--which, btw--please think very hard on before you do it, as gunnery+supports and drones+supports take a long time to get really proficient. Although, I can see arguments for some Gallente T2 hulls being somewhat missile-oriented varieties (namely those ships that work well with longer range or no cap usage (Lachesis, Eris, Nemesis, Phobos (capless missiles = more bubbles!), probably Oneiros, too, could have some launcher slots), I still think the emphasis on the T2 lineup should be through blasters and drones, with letting the specialized ships (much moreso specialized in non-dd roles) retain their missile launcher slots, if you must, for Roden.

    Saying that, though, makes me sad, since I love my Roden-painted ships. Also, before doing something stupid like changing the Enyo to be a missile boat, just add in another Incursus T2 hull that's Roden (for missiles), and make the Enyo the Duvolle blaster boat. And while you're at it, change the Ishkur to be built off a Tristan hull, since, honestly, that is THE T1 drone boat.

    Lastly, and sorry for the long(ish) post, LML and HML T2 Roden ships wouldn't step on Caldari's heels, since there's room in the ship lineups for long range/armor tanked ships (with Khanid obviously covering the short range/armor tanked missile role). And Minmatar hulls generally focus on projectiles and speed in T2. But I guess that being said, it might be nice to have long range missile specializers in T2 Gallente hulls in just a similar way that many Caldari hybrid boats now fit for blasters.

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    KuroVolt
    The Legion of Spoon
    Curatores Veritatis Alliance
    #19 - 2013-04-11 00:44:03 UTC
    The manufacturers need looking at in Total, The Caldari and Minmatar are fine.

    The Amarr ones [especially Carthum and Viziam] are almost impossible to tell appart as they all specialize in armour and besides khanid lasers with the only thing to set them apart being the colour of the ship.

    With the Gallente its just Rodens lack of an identity.
    the ship is supposed to be bad at electronics yet they give it all the electronic ships [which I understand seeing as all the blaster boats are covered by Duvolle and all the drones boats go to Creodron]

    Roden needs to have its description changed to it dealing with electronics, it would solve alot of issues.
    I wouldnt go as far as having them completely specialise in missiles as it would just make them a clone of the Khanid.

    As far as the Enyo is concerned: While I LOVE my red enyo; the ship should really just be reskinned to be a Duvolle ship, its basically the blaster assault frigate and should thus be a Duvolle ship.

    In turn the Nemesis should be Roden, not Duvolle. I mean REALLY the one ship that fits perfectly with Roden and you gave it to Duvolle?!

    Basically: Change Rodens description to being GOOD at electronics as opposed to bad and reskin both the Enyo and the Nemesis to swap manufacturers and it would solve most of the problems in my eyes.

    BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.

    Fredfredbug4
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #20 - 2013-04-11 01:00:52 UTC
    I always felt that Roden ships should be like fast Minmatar ships only focused on armor rather than shields (minnie does both but leans more towards shields).

    Come to think of it, projectile weapons are the only weapon system not shared by at least one other race. It might sound silly, but what if we put autocannons or artillery on Roden ships?

    I'm leaning more towards arty, it might be interesting to see arty combined with Gallente ships.

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