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[GMVA] The Situation in the Intaki System
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-04-10 09:41:31 UTC
Mammal Tafren wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

These are your words. I prefer to believe tactical maps instead. They say: "Occupation: Gallente Federation". I don't see "Intaki people". And I don't see "Intaki people" fighting for it either. If they don't fight for it, they don't need it.


Diana,

My advice to you is that you should generally avoid speaking of things of which you have no idea. It makes you sound ignorant.

You and calamulav like you have a great deal to learn

I am speaking about what I know and what I work with: tactical maps.
And what the heck are you speaking about, I have no freaking idea.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#62 - 2013-04-10 09:45:05 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

I am speaking about what I know and what I work with: tactical maps.
And what the heck are you speaking about, I have no freaking idea.


You should stick to shooting circles, Kim.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.
Mammal Tafren
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#63 - 2013-04-10 09:47:40 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

And what the heck are you speaking about, I have no freaking idea.


That much is certain.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#64 - 2013-04-10 13:07:59 UTC
Kim.
Learn to read.
That is all.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-04-10 13:28:19 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
Kim.
Learn to read.
That is all.

You telling it after reading things that didn't exist?
Very interesting case. Unfortunately, I lack medical education to help you.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#66 - 2013-04-10 13:48:58 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Fascinating that you miss the true point of this - which is that we'd prefer the Intaki people not suffer under a never-ending cycle of occupation and abandonment by BOTH governments or the crushing effects of a war that is not of their making and which they cannot ever bring a resolution to.

Put short, we'd like the bombing and the killing to stop Mr Caine. That is our agenda here.



Out of politeness, I'll suppose you have read my post but decided to interpret it in your way, so let me elaborate a bit more precisely.
I would like the bombing and killing to stop as well, Tuulinen-haan. The difference between our agendas however is that I don't see the Intaki as some kind of a toy being pulled on by two children, one the Federation and one the State; if you let go of it, you're afraid the other side will grab it completely ( speaking of that fear, given Federation's hegemonic expansion drive I can't blame you for it).

This textbook prisoner's dilemma has three possible outcomes; one I advocate is both Federation and Caldari stop breaking their policies over the back of Intaki people and allow them to have full independence.
Syndicate, being a prosperousand independent endavour by those Intaki who are not afraid to live up to their potential is just a living proof that such a solution is not just viable, but probably the best one out there.

However, Federal zealots, like zealots of any kind find reason and rational approaches hard to deal with.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#67 - 2013-04-10 17:48:01 UTC
Well, we've done our part.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224254&find=unread

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#68 - 2013-04-10 19:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: iyammarrok
Things that didn't exist?
Your rhetoric concerning the Caldari Homeworld basically boils down to this

'It's is the Caldari homeworld, so the Caldari should have total control over it'

Yet you also claim that the intaki have no claim to their own homeworld.

Ergo, Hypocrisy.

I should not have to spell this out for you. My meaning was very clear.

one other thought.
Heresy : the willful and persistent rejection of any article of faith by an ordained member of the church.
How is my pointing out that you claimed the above regarding Caldari Prime saying that you were speaking Heresy?

Anyway. Enough of this, I will let you remain in your little bubble, ignorant of the realities of the wider cluster, and get on with my life.
You, Kim, are irrelevant.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Julianus Soter
Blades of Liberty
#69 - 2013-04-11 00:56:19 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Well, we've done our part.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224254&find=unread


This is an honorable gesture, however, we request the participation of the primary alliances and paramilitary organizations of the Caldari Militia to reciprocate our initiative. We are still awaiting word from those of Bloody Ronin Syndicate, for example.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#70 - 2013-04-11 01:09:10 UTC
Julianus Soter wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Well, we've done our part.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224254&find=unread


This is an honorable gesture, however, we request the participation of the primary alliances and paramilitary organizations of the Caldari Militia to reciprocate our initiative. We are still awaiting word from those of Bloody Ronin Syndicate, for example.


Soter,

Pyre Falcon isn't reciprocating your initiative, they're one-upping you. If you're capable of it, I suggest you read over their initiative and compare it to yours and you'll see they're going quite a few steps beyond your approach. Perhaps you should consider reciprocating in kind.

~Malcolm Khross
Julianus Soter
Blades of Liberty
#71 - 2013-04-11 04:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Julianus Soter
Preventing their, what, six pilots from contesting complexes in enemy systems five days in the future, vs. Our offer to keep five hundred members from retaking starsystems currently vulnerable to attack? That's like comparing a furrier to a slaver hound... Cosmopolitical compromise and dialogue can only bear fruit if the other party engages on equal terms.

We await that moment yet. And the continuing delay of the primary Caldari militia military forces to acknowledge our offer makes me think they are refusing any possibility of deescalation.

I hope I am proven wrong.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#72 - 2013-04-11 04:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Julianus Soter wrote:
Preventing their, what, six pilots from contesting complexes in enemy systems five days in the future, vs. Our offer to keep five hundred members from retaking starsystems currently vulnerable to attack? That's like comparing a furrier to a slaver hound... Cosmopolitical compromise and dialogue can only bear fruit if the other party engages on equal terms.

We await that moment yet. And the continuing delay of the primary Caldari militia military forces to acknowledge our offer makes me think they are refusing any possibility of deescalation.

I hope I am proven wrong.


What a disappointing result. For a moment I thought you might be reaching out a hand over the aisle. Not only was your initiative little more than noise, but you proved incapable of actually enforcing it amongst your alliance.

Despite that, we offered something of substantiative value and you do nothing more than spit in our faces.

If the other alliances in the State Protectorate won't take you seriously, I hope you won't wrack your brain for the reason why? Mind you - you do look quite a bit like a Furrier.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-04-11 11:21:41 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:

You, Kim, are irrelevant.

No, sir. It is you, who are irrelevant. You have shown yourself to be able to bent others words and change meanings to show things as you wanted them to be, not as they are.
It would be interesting to see if you can bent a bullet that will be flying to your forehead during real conflict.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#74 - 2013-04-12 06:48:58 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


What a disappointing result. For a moment I thought you might be reaching out a hand over the aisle. Not only was your initiative little more than noise, but you proved incapable of actually enforcing it amongst your alliance.

Despite that, we offered something of substantiative value and you do nothing more than spit in our faces.

If the other alliances in the State Protectorate won't take you seriously, I hope you won't wrack your brain for the reason why? Mind you - you do look quite a bit like a Furrier.


Come now, Pieter, aren't you being somewhat melodramatic? Spitting in your faces? Really?

Read the statements made in this discussion, and in my initial announcement and tell me which party showed more respect generally for the other. Commander Soter and I both expressed our praise for your effort. As soon as we did, Captain Khross took it upon himself to interject his flawed comparison.

I once again take issue with your characterization of our moratorium as "little more than noise." Furthermore, I would very much like to see what "proof" you have that [GMVA] has not abided by our stated aim. So far the only complaint I have seen has been in concern to the presence of Villore Accords pilots at a skirmish near the Akidagi Infrastructure Hub several days ago. At this time Akidagi remains under Caldari control. Rest assured that if [GMVA] wanted to take that system we would. I could probably pull the pilots and ships required to do so and command the operation myself right now, based on the number of active Alliance members in our comms at the moment.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#75 - 2013-04-12 07:03:44 UTC
I don't know, it might have been the 'furrier to a slaver hound' nonsense that got my blood up, Rinai. Even someone as silver-tongued as yourself will find it hard to spin THAT one.

And I say it's watered down because hitting hubs is the only thing your initiative covers - not only that but we had a long discussion contribution from one of GMVA's corp CEOs about how he could care less about agreements, he'd do whatever he wanted.

I have NO intention of starting a spitting match, believe me. I'm just saying.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Julianus Soter
Blades of Liberty
#76 - 2013-04-12 09:48:10 UTC
I always thought that was a common metaphor, first propagated by Amarrian commoner free traders... No offense intended.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-04-12 10:09:13 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Commander Soter and I both expressed our praise for your effort. As soon as we did, Captain Khross took it upon himself to interject his flawed comparison.


My flawed comparison:

Rinai Vero wrote:
Effective 00:00 Hours, YC113.04.06 [GMVA] Villore Accords is declaring an Alliance wide moratorium on offensive operations targeting System Sovereignty Infrastructure of Caldari held star systems in recognized Caldari regions of Black Rise and The Citadel.

To be clear: GMVA will not consider itself under obligation to Cease Fire in any theater of war. Offensive operations targeting Caldari Military Installations will continue, and any Caldari held star systems in recognized Gallente regions of Placid, Essence, or Verge Vendor will continue to be targets for liberation. We will continue to be vigilant in defending the liberty and livelihood of the many Gallente, Intaki and other Federation Citizens living throughout the warzone.


Effects:

  • Will not engage infrastructure hubs to convert system sovereignty (though an addendum was added stating that GMVA cannot be held accountable for the actions of individual pilots because it doesn't have the means necessary to enforce its own directives on its members).
  • Will not surrender currently occupied systems
  • Will continue to engage military assets and complexes
  • Will continue to recapture State held territory in Placid, Essence and Verge Vendor
  • Makes no effort to recognize the sovereignty of the State in The Citadel and Black Rise


Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

1. We formally recognise Federal sovereignty in the Regions of Placid, Verge Vendor and Essence that are currently included in the CEWPA conflict zone.

2. We formally recognise Federal sovereignty in the Intaki system - until such time as the Intaki people indicate they wish to pursue independence as a result of free and fair elections.

3. We formally undertake to pursue no territorial gains in systems where we have recognised Federal Sovereignty. This includes the attack and capture of Federal Military Complexes, for the purposes of system capture or for financial remuneration.

4. We reiterate our commitment to the rules of war regarding the rescue of enemy combatant ship crews from life pods after fleet battles as soon as is practicably possible. Moreover we will move to repatriate recovered FDU crewmembers, not guilty of crimes, without exchange to any FDU alliance or organisation that signs a reciprocal agreement.

5. We formally commit to maintain State sovereignty through territorial integrity operations along the FNNE axis (Fliet, Nagamanen, Nennamaila, Eha) and will maintain such against FDU and TLF Aggression.

6. So long as the war between the Caldari State and the Gallente Federation continues, we reserve the right to carry out unrestricted warfare on enemy flagged ships in ANY part of space at ANY time.

7. Pursuant to Caldari State, State Protectorate and Kaalakiota Corporate security guidelines, we reserve the right to attack any neutral flagged ship encountered within a Federal or State military complex or in the vicinity of the acceleration gate leading thereto.

8. Pursuant to Caldari State, State Protectorate and Kaalakiota Corporate security guidelines, we reserve the right to preemptive defensive actions on any ship, whatsoever its affiliation, which a Pyre Falcon fleet commander feels represents a clear and present danger to Pyre Falcon or Allied assets and personnel.


Effects:

  • Formal recognition and declaration of Federal sovereignty in the regions of Placid, Verge Vendor and Essence
  • Recognition of sovereignty by the Intaki people over the Intaki system
  • Formal withdraw from attacking military complexes in Placid, Verge Vendor and Essence
  • Commitment to focusing on recapturing territory in Black Rise and The Citadel currently occupied by the Federation
  • Will engage military vessels


Do I need to spell out the differences even more clearly or can you find them for yourself now?

~Malcolm Khross
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2013-04-12 10:58:40 UTC
There's not much reasoning with Soter, Malcolm.

After all, he has 500 members he can't control to talk about.

I'll consider the Federation and State to be moving closer to a state of de-escalation and possible compromise when, and only when, our respective governments declare that to be the case. I appreciate what individuals such as Pieter, Veikitamo and Rinai Vero mean when they push efforts such as this, but individuals such as Julianus demonstrate so aptly that the well-meaning efforts of forward thinking capsuleers are quickly co-opted for personal grand standing.

Capsuleer resolutions are untenable, unenforceable and effectively meaningless. In short, they are not resolutions.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#79 - 2013-04-12 11:03:14 UTC
Well said, pilot Aelisha. You wrote down my own feelings clearly and concisely and much more politely than I could have hoped to.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#80 - 2013-04-12 20:36:04 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:


Effects:

  • Will not engage infrastructure hubs to convert system sovereignty (though an addendum was added stating that GMVA cannot be held accountable for the actions of individual pilots because it doesn't have the means necessary to enforce its own directives on its members).
  • Will not surrender currently occupied systems
  • Will continue to engage military assets and complexes
  • Will continue to recapture State held territory in Placid, Essence and Verge Vendor
  • Makes no effort to recognize the sovereignty of the State in The Citadel and Black Rise



Effects:

  • Formal recognition and declaration of Federal sovereignty in the regions of Placid, Verge Vendor and Essence
  • Recognition of sovereignty by the Intaki people over the Intaki system
  • Formal withdraw from attacking military complexes in Placid, Verge Vendor and Essence
  • Commitment to focusing on recapturing territory in Black Rise and The Citadel currently occupied by the Federation
  • Will engage military vessels


Do I need to spell out the differences even more clearly or can you find them for yourself now?


Some analysis of what the actual effect each proposal is likely to have on the Warzone might be in order. Particularly when your conclusion is that Pyre Falcon's declaration is "one-upping" ours. Our proposal can be evaluated based on the events of the preceding week. As for Pyre Falcon Defense Combine, we will need to wait until 04.15 for them to even abide by their own stated commitment.

And by the way, my initial communique specifically recognized "the Universal rights of Caldari and Gallente Citizens alike to live under government of their choosing." Hardly a lack of effort to recognize Caldari sovereignty, unless you're merely being obtuse about the language.