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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1021 - 2013-04-10 09:01:24 UTC
CCP Rise with regards to the Dominix
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I will start this off with a little lore:
Red Moon Rising Expansion
December 2005
EW Drones, Logistic Drones, and Sentry Drones were introduced.
Max drone control was 15, (+5 from Drones, +5 from Drone Interfacing, and +5 form the ship [Dominix] in this thread)
Over the next few years T2 variations of drones were introduces for all drones, with the exception of EW drones and Fighter/Bombers
Fast forward to December 2007,
Trinity Expansion
Drone Bandwidth was introduced and the max drone control for sub capital ships was reduced 5 drones per ship, skills and ships were modified to compensate for the loss of 10 drones, Drones +1 Drones/level Drone Interfacing +20% Drone Damage and Mining Yield/level Ship Bonuses +10% Drone Damage and HP/level

Now the modifications were effective in keeping the damage the same as before, but nothing else for example you were able to launch 15 medium armor maintaince drone II from the Dominix, @28 HP/drone and a cycle time of 5s you could rep 105HP/s. now you can only rep 35HP/s. This is due to the Drone Interfacing skill only boosting Drone Damage and not the total effectiveness of drones, the same if true for all non combat drones.

As for the ability to destroy drones, when 15 drones were able to be controlled by the Dominix, using hammerhead II, the total HP of all drones was (before resistances) 21225HP. The reduction of drone control did not take this into consideration either, the hull grants +10% HP/level, but that leaves the drones with a total HP of 10615.5HP, merely half of the amount of HP that could be fielded before.

Drone Interfacing should add +20%/level to the total effectiveness of drones, HP, Damage, Mining Yield, Web amount.
The Hull bonus should do the same except 10%/level

This would give drone ships the versatility that they use to have before they were reduced down to 5 drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1022 - 2013-04-10 09:02:22 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
You realize they were trying to give the Mega that inherently flawed 8-5-6 layout right? Basically trading one gimp for another?
You realize the Megathron was not supposed to be a fleet ship anymore ?

And you may not like non amarr BS, that don't mean 8/5/6 layout is non functional ; you don't see any use to this layout, fine, go play with some amarr BS with 847 layout, there is 3 of them ; new Megathron had almost the same firepower than before (which mean *very huge*, because of blasters), and earned a utility mid slot ! Yet, blind people like you are in a senseless crusade against 856 layout and don't even want to look at this kind of ship, because that may hurt your soul and bring you to hell...
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#1023 - 2013-04-10 09:04:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay.

Yes, please.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#1024 - 2013-04-10 09:07:34 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
You realize they were trying to give the Mega that inherently flawed 8-5-6 layout right? Basically trading one gimp for another?
You realize the Megathron was not supposed to be a fleet ship anymore ?

And you may not like non amarr BS, that don't mean 8/5/6 layout is non functional ; you don't see any use to this layout, fine, go play with some amarr BS with 847 layout, there is 3 of them ; new Megathron had almost the same firepower than before (which mean *very huge*, because of blasters), and earned a utility mid slot ! Yet, blind people like you are in a senseless crusade against 856 layout and don't even want to look at this kind of ship, because that may hurt your soul and bring you to hell...


Go fit a hyperion and tell me the layout works again.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1025 - 2013-04-10 09:08:31 UTC
Roime wrote:
RE: Megathron

so comparing a standard Neutron/dual plate/Heavy neut fit, new Mega loses 160 dps with the same tank (or 25K EHP and 11dps), gains 55m/s speed and 0.7s align time. Extra mid can not fit MJD, only low-cpu modules fit. TC or ECCM would be my choice, or painter/another web depending on the rest of the gang.

For light armor, changes would mean that Mega needs to overheat on Void to reach 1000dps, gets a mid in exchange, which in together with the ROF bonus will make it hit better. In some cases, this might mean more applied dps.

However, it can no longer do heavy armor at all, and active tank gets slashed by ~300 hp/s (RAH@Omni 15%).

Shield fit has max 85K EHP, and this fit has no tackle. No point, no web. Tackle drops you down to 74K EHP. With one Overdrive and heated MWD, it goes 1797m/s (not for long, mind the cap) and pushes 1185dps with CNAM and Ogre IIs. With Null it does less dps than a Talos. Hard to see where this big and slow glass cannon would be useful.


As a general note, idk why CCP doesn't use this opportunity to lift the whole battleship class to their former glory. 20% EHP, free extra turret+fitting for all, more sensor strength, lock range and capacitor. Ideally they would sit clearly above all other subcaps in damage, projection and staying power.

After Odyssey, ABCs will still rule.

P.S. "mobile armor battleship" is an oxymoron.

Of course, when comparing the Talos to something else, ehp are irrelevant, or the other ship would have an advantage I guess ? Do you realize that you are looking at any advantage of the Megathron over the Talos with disdain and hence concluding that the Talos is far better ? You are completely biased toward the Talos.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1026 - 2013-04-10 09:09:28 UTC
Akirei Scytale

Now, let's look at the stats on three common ships used to fill this role: the Alpha Maelstrom, Fleet Rokh and Hellcat Abaddon.

[u wrote:
Alpha Maelstrom:[/u]
DPS: 600 @ 40km, 400 @ 70km
EHP: 123k
Resists: 71 / 77 / 83 / 70
Bonus Perk: Extreme Alpha

This ship is an all around solid choice, even with a completely wasted ship bonus. I won't go into too much depth, but resist bonuses are completely superior to active bonuses because they benefit both active and buffer tanks. Let's lose them if we can.

Fleet Rokh:
DPS: 540 @ 60km, 300 @ 140km
EHP: 133k
Resists: 78 / 83 / 73 / 77
Bonus Perk: Extreme Range Flexibility

This ship not only has a fantastic tank, but it can actually compete with Tier 3 Battlecruisers that attempt to harass it. It fills its role incredibly well, and there is a reason the HBC relies on it primarily today.

Hellcat Abaddon:
DPS: 650 @ 60km
EHP: 125k
Resists: 68 / 79 / 79 / 77
Bonus Perk: Extremely High Tracking



Ok, if the vague promise of tweaking sentry mechanics is actually realized, here's the Domi stats.

Sentry Dominix:
DPS: 848 @ 62km
EHP: 121K
Resists: 75 / 68 / 68 / 64
Bonus Perks: Best tracking of all LR large guns in game by a fair margin*, assigning drones means fast locking times.

Tank is lacking, and needs either more CPU or native drone control range. Swapping one DDA II for resists improve the tank at the expense of dps. Vulnerable to bombs, drone EHP and sig need to be fixed. On-grid warps don't necessarily mean losing drones, you can have alternate between sets of deployed drones. Is possible to fit for high dps at 130km as well.

So, it's not quite there, and like the Hype, the issues go deeper than just ship stats.

* about equal to Neutron Mega with CNAM

Fit used for theorycrafting:

[Dominix, Fleet]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Target Spectrum Breaker

Drone Link Augmentor II
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I


Garde II x5
Bouncer II x5
Garde II x5


.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1027 - 2013-04-10 09:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Go fit a hyperion and tell me the layout works again.
Sure, which amarrian job do you want it to do ? Which amarrian caracteristics do you want it to mimic for your job ? Because I'm pretty sure you will discard anything I can give to you if I don't answer these questions...
Denuo Secus
#1028 - 2013-04-10 09:14:02 UTC
I don't really understand why people dislike the new Mega.

We would get a fast BS with 5 med slots for dual web, dual prop, ECCM, ewar, dual cap booster for neut resilience (new geddon anyone?), ....and so on. A very flexible BS, with tracking bonus, highly capable for very small gang PvP because of flexibility.

All for the cost of what? Maybe ~10k EHP?

Why so much hate? It's perfect! I really hope CCP won't drop the 5 med slots idea.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1029 - 2013-04-10 09:16:29 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Of course, when comparing the Talos to something else, ehp are irrelevant, or the other ship would have an advantage I guess ? Do you realize that you are looking at any advantage of the Megathron over the Talos with disdain and hence concluding that the Talos is far better ? You are completely biased toward the Talos.



I'm comparing the advantages of these ships when fitted for mobile dps, as CCP Rise suggests that the new Mega could be used.

Talos- mobility, dps
Mega- tank

Now when you consider these in practical situations, you'll notice that the mobility of Talos negates the need for tank. And the Mega will actually need to tank, because it will be caught by most ships.

When fit for close range armor brawling, Mega obviously wins hands down, due to massive tank and utility advantage.

= I'm not saying Mega is worse than Talos, except when shield fit. I don't really believe in fast battleships, one exists and it's pretty damn OP and should be nerfed. The trump cards of battleships should be fire-and staying power along with utility.

.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#1030 - 2013-04-10 09:18:17 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Go fit a hyperion and tell me the layout works again.
Sure, which amarrian job do you want it to do ? Which amarrian caracteristics do you want it to mimic for your job ? Because I'm pretty sure you will discard anything I can give to you if I don't answer these questions...


Amarrian? Every race has a beefy, medium range bs. Every race but gallente. In fact, the two best ones are caldari and minmatar. But keep calling it an amarr role if it makes you feel good.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1031 - 2013-04-10 09:20:27 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
I don't really understand why people dislike the new Mega.

We would get a fast BS with 5 med slots for dual web, dual prop, ECCM, ewar, dual cap booster for neut resilience (new geddon anyone?), ....and so on. A very flexible BS, with tracking bonus, highly capable for very small gang PvP because of flexibility.

All for the cost of what? Maybe ~10k EHP?

Why so much hate? It's perfect! I really hope CCP won't drop the 5 med slots idea.


I would rather lose the utility high than that low slot.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1032 - 2013-04-10 09:22:17 UTC
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.

@ccp_rise
Dave stark
#1033 - 2013-04-10 09:23:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I would rather lose the utility high than that low slot.


ask and ye shall receive...
sort of.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1034 - 2013-04-10 09:24:09 UTC
Roime wrote:
I'm comparing the advantages of these ships when fitted for mobile dps, as CCP Rise suggests that the new Mega could be used.

Talos- mobility, dps
Mega- tank

Now when you consider these in practical situations, you'll notice that the mobility of Talos negates the need for tank. And the Mega will actually need to tank, because it will be caught by most ships.

When fit for close range armor brawling, Mega obviously wins hands down, due to massive tank and utility advantage.

= I'm not saying Mega is worse than Talos, except when shield fit. I don't really believe in fast battleships, one exists and it's pretty damn OP and should be nerfed. The trump cards of battleships should be fire-and staying power along with utility.

I fine with this wording : you don't *believe* in fast battleships. Yet, considering the stats of your megathron, it's as fast as most CBC, bu have more firepower and staying power. This fit perfectly the gap between CBC and more resilient BS.

Oh, and it have the ability to stand against ABC while returning them heavy punishment while being, again, as fast as some CBC.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1035 - 2013-04-10 09:27:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.

Better.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1036 - 2013-04-10 09:27:38 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.


Oh I love you so much right now
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1037 - 2013-04-10 09:27:39 UTC
Wow ! Looking at the changes, whining did a good job at making these ships *very* competitive, to say the least...
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1038 - 2013-04-10 09:29:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.

Do you plan on actually making the Dominix a decent drone ship or do you prefer the one that is inferior to the Armageddon.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1039 - 2013-04-10 09:29:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.


Oh I love you so much right now


DAT MEGATHRON.
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1040 - 2013-04-10 09:30:15 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.

Do you plan on actually making the Dominix a decent drone ship or do you prefer the one that is inferior to the Armageddon.


The new Dominix is going to be a pretty goddamn amazing drone ship, that range and tracking bonus is immensely powerful.