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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Ryuce
#1001 - 2013-04-10 06:54:08 UTC
nvm
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1002 - 2013-04-10 07:07:40 UTC
Given the similarity between ABC's in firepower, and the great gulf between BS and capitals in terms of hitpoints (giving the BS room to grow), does anyone here reckon that battleships should get a substantial (+25%) boost to hitpoints to widen the gap between ABC's and BS? It seems the tradeoff of toughness for mobility is something people greatly prefer, and BS needs something to make it stand out, especially for the price.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Helena Khan
Ministry Of Reverse Engineering
#1003 - 2013-04-10 07:22:55 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Helena Khan wrote:
I still believe the Hyperion is the better fit for a line ship because of the 8 turrets and damage bonus as it currently stands. Where it falls down is that large fleet combat is all about EHP.

You're aware that you're talking about a battleship with SEVEN low slots right?
Passive fit, It has more damage and hitpoints than your standard fleet artillery Maelstrom, and its hp is about the same as a Rokh.

HOWEVER.
A Gallente *sniper* should never outperform the Caldari/Amarr @ extreme range, because that's what those races excel at.
Maybe something like a MJD range bonus could be fun to play with, because Gallente is a close-midrange race.

With that said, it's unlike that any turret based ships will ever supplant the Rokh/Mael for sniping because of three reason.
1. The Rokh will always have the best range. Nothing compares to it.
2. Because of the way artillery (alpha) works, and the Maelstroms 8 turrets, it will always be a top choice.
3. Both of these ships are significantly less cap hungry and harder to tank against than lasers.



While the Mega does have seven lows - the gun bonuses current and proposed are suggestive of a heavy cavalry style of ship. The Hyperion is the opposite. Thats the point.

There are massive alpha differences as you've indicated. The comparison is something of an apples/oranges affair, esp when you take into account the 8 turrets for the Mael vs 7 for the Mega. To make it more competitive would require the addition of another turret - whereas the Hype already has 8 in place....
Moretic
Casual Slackers
#1004 - 2013-04-10 07:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Moretic
Why dont we just all agree that the changes to the domi are great to some extent.
Add drone control range to it and some powergrid + a little drone bay increase (+50?) and we are fine...

I'd like to see a new model for it too :P ( domi = fat ugly blob )
Rukhsana Uxor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1005 - 2013-04-10 07:36:08 UTC
Moretic wrote:
Why dont we just all agree that the changes to the domi are great to some extent.
Add drone control range to it and some powergrid and we are fine...

I'd like to see a new model for it too :P ( domi = fat ugly blob )

I think better to give domi bonus on both drones types. For example optimal+mwd speed (7,5 per lvl for example). You always could put 2 DLA in your high (especiallynow w\o hybrid bonus damage).
chris elliot
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#1006 - 2013-04-10 07:36:59 UTC
What would the potential thatwouldbebrokenasbawls theory be with giving the Hyp more grid and cpu to make use of its top tier guns along with its primary tank like the other tier 3 battleships?

Give it back its mid and couple it with the rep amount bonus and add in a third bonus to cycle time or cap reduction used for reppers to help ease the terribad cycle times of armor reps in pvp. That way it way it would actually sorta work for fleets because it can actually fit things(rails plates blah blah). And in small gang it can sorta do what a maelstrom or raven can do with the asb's(only with cap boosters).

I'm sure somewhere in the 50 pages of people wondering A) Why you hate us.P B)Crying.Cry C)Banging heads in frustration. XD)Trying to unscrew this potential catastrophy.Ugh Someone has to have suggested it.

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1007 - 2013-04-10 07:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
RE: Megathron

so comparing a standard Neutron/dual plate/Heavy neut fit, new Mega loses 160 dps with the same tank (or 25K EHP and 11dps), gains 55m/s speed and 0.7s align time. Extra mid can not fit MJD, only low-cpu modules fit. TC or ECCM would be my choice, or painter/another web depending on the rest of the gang.

For light armor, changes would mean that Mega needs to overheat on Void to reach 1000dps, gets a mid in exchange, which in together with the ROF bonus will make it hit better. In some cases, this might mean more applied dps.

However, it can no longer do heavy armor at all, and active tank gets slashed by ~300 hp/s (RAH@Omni 15%).

Shield fit has max 85K EHP, and this fit has no tackle. No point, no web. Tackle drops you down to 74K EHP. With one Overdrive and heated MWD, it goes 1797m/s (not for long, mind the cap) and pushes 1185dps with CNAM and Ogre IIs. With Null it does less dps than a Talos. Hard to see where this big and slow glass cannon would be useful.


As a general note, idk why CCP doesn't use this opportunity to lift the whole battleship class to their former glory. 20% EHP, free extra turret+fitting for all, more sensor strength, lock range and capacitor. Ideally they would sit clearly above all other subcaps in damage, projection and staying power.

After Odyssey, ABCs will still rule.

P.S. "mobile armor battleship" is an oxymoron.

.
Moretic
Casual Slackers
#1008 - 2013-04-10 07:43:06 UTC
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:
Moretic wrote:
Why dont we just all agree that the changes to the domi are great to some extent.
Add drone control range to it and some powergrid and we are fine...

I'd like to see a new model for it too :P ( domi = fat ugly blob )

I think better to give domi bonus on both drones types. For example optimal+mwd speed (7,5 per lvl for example). You always could put 2 DLA in your high (especiallynow w\o hybrid bonus damage).



I am all for more drone thingys... I just dont wanna loose any turrent slots despite the lack of gun bonus...
I'd care less about guns if they put all 3 (drone damage, tracking, optimal) on the ship and add drone implants.

I see the addition of tracking rather good and I want to see more drones!!
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1009 - 2013-04-10 07:44:35 UTC
*Role Bonus*

Megathron: -50% to fitting and cooldown timer of Micro Warp Drive

Hyperion and Dominix: -50% to cycle time and capacitor usage of Target Spectrum Breaker


The Megathron would become a very good small scale, dare I say solo ship while embedding its place as an attack battleship. Enabling it to get on top of the enemy to pound away with it's blasters.

The Hyperion and Dominix would enjoy the luxury of a new type of large scale fleet fights happening as the number of enemies about to primary it are severely diminished. Thus allowing the Hyperion to make use of a local tank and the Dominix could see practicality use of it's drones and utility high slots depending on the configuration.

The other races can make good use of the same role bonuses one their T1 battleships. It would be a very distinctive advantage to choosing them over say the attack battlecruisers and blow away the "Blob > Everything"... well, maybe not blow it away, but damn sure make it far less accurate than it is now. The only ones I see who would be extremely against such role bonuses would be F1 monkeys and the FC's who lead them.
Moretic
Casual Slackers
#1010 - 2013-04-10 07:46:27 UTC
also, I wanna know what changes they are making to the navy dom :P
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1011 - 2013-04-10 07:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
RE: Dominix

!!! needs more CPU, or base drone control range !!!

along with the fixes to drone UI, AI, sig, EHP, speed and activation proximity, the new Dominix is an awesome ship if the changes go through as suggested. Currently the optimal+tracking bonus does help so much with mobile drones, which suffer from both low MWD and orbit speeds, not from tracking and optimal.

I do confess that only one of my Domis have guns on it, and it's a solo PVE fit which loses some gun dps, but gains Garde range and tracking.

Doubling sentry scope range would not hurt your idea of making it a fleet ship. Or increase drone bay- if Amarr ship can have the same bandwidth, why not break the "rules" and give Gallente the bigger bay, as it's now designed as a pure drone boat. I don't personally like the idea of pure drone boats, but in the case of Dominix, I have to admit that's how I fly it 99% of the time and it performs really well in it's task.

Low damage in brawling small gang situations is worrying (no you won't be able to use heavies against frigs no matter how much tracking you pile on Ogers), and this is where the Geddon starts to look much better alternative.

Anyway- the drone fixes have to come.

Also happy rumour for Domi pilots- it's getting a new model <3

P.S. How about expanding the drone bonus finally to ALL types of drones? That would be literally a "drone boat".

.
Moretic
Casual Slackers
#1012 - 2013-04-10 07:55:14 UTC
Roime wrote:
RE: Dominix

along with the fixes to drone UI, AI, sig, EHP, speed and activation proximity, the new Dominix is an awesome ship if the changes go through as suggested. Currently the optimal+tracking bonus does help so much with mobile drones, which suffer from both low MWD and orbit speeds, not from tracking and optimal.

I do confess that only one of my Domis have guns on it, and it's a solo PVE fit which loses some gun dps, but gains Garde range and tracking.

Doubling sentry scope range would not hurt your idea of making it a fleet ship. Or increase drone bay- if Amarr ship can have the same bandwidth, why not break the "rules" and give Gallente the bigger bay, as it's now designed as a pure drone boat. I don't personally like the idea of pure drone boats, but in the case of Dominix, I have to admit that's how I fly it 99% of the time and it performs really well in it's task.

Low damage in brawling small gang situations is worrying (no you won't be able to use heavies against frigs no matter how much tracking you pile on Ogers), and this is where the Geddon starts to look much better alternative.

Anyway- the drone fixes have to come.

Also happy rumour for Domi pilots- it's getting a new model <3

P.S. How about expanding the drone bonus finally to ALL types of drones? That would be literally a "drone boat".


WOOT!!!! ??? new model? thats UNFAIR to say since I will now be *BEEP* over it regardless if its true or not :P
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1013 - 2013-04-10 07:58:07 UTC
Moretic wrote:

WOOT!!!! ??? new model? thats UNFAIR to say since I will now be *BEEP* over it regardless if its true or not :P


http://imgur.com/11sixml

Cool finally

.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1014 - 2013-04-10 08:06:44 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Listen, I know they only let you fly Amarr ships in PIE so you may not be aware of this, but even if a sentry drone has the optimal to reach that far, it can't fire outside your drone control radius. Since the Dominix gets no bonus to drone control range, the effective range of any sentry drone is hard-capped in the ~60km area unless you fit a control range module.

Fully aware of the restriction, the ranges was listed in response to an individual that apparently only considered blasters when making his evaluation of the options. Must be said though that I have not seen sentry sniping for a long time (nano-age Ishtar's) so had to actually check the bonus on the augmentor .. 20km .. WTF!

@CCP: Double the control range bonus on Drone Link Augs, 20km is neither here nor there and ships going out to those ranges will in most likelihood need a SeBo on top to utilize it. Either that, or consider the ranges when the Great Drone Revision of 201X rolls around (see, optimism .. honestly think it will happen in this decade! Smile)
Marlona Sky wrote:
...Hyperion and Dominix: -50% to cycle time and capacitor usage of Target Spectrum Breaker[/b]...

How do they function in reality, Is the breakers applied before or after a lock? If before then you'll just have swarms of unlockable gank blaster BS running around, if after then by all means ..

Good idea with the MJD though, although I'd probably go cap use reduction instead of fitting.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1015 - 2013-04-10 08:15:52 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
...Hyperion and Dominix: -50% to cycle time and capacitor usage of Target Spectrum Breaker[/b]...

How do they function in reality, Is the breakers applied before or after a lock? If before then you'll just have swarms of unlockable gank blaster BS running around, if after then by all means ..

Good idea with the MJD though, although I'd probably go cap use reduction instead of fitting.

The Target Spectrum Breaker chance to break a persons lock/attempt to lock goes higher and higher the more and more people have the ship locked and are attempting to lock it. That is per ship. So that does not mean no one will be able to lock it in large fights, it means a smaller portion can lock it. As far as using it in small scale combat, you won't really see much use because the chance of breaking someones lock will be very low due to the small number of people locking you.
Moretic
Casual Slackers
#1016 - 2013-04-10 08:38:21 UTC
Roime wrote:
Moretic wrote:

WOOT!!!! ??? new model? thats UNFAIR to say since I will now be *BEEP* over it regardless if its true or not :P


http://imgur.com/11sixml

Cool finally


please please make it so !!! :D haha, I'd love to see images of the model :D
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1017 - 2013-04-10 08:38:57 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
2) The Hyperion is the only tier 3 Gallente BS. Because it has the **** layout, it isn't viable for any of the things every other tier 3 BS can do. The only fleet viable BS Gallente has currently is the Megathron (it has a good layout), but because of the tier system, its stats are WAY below par. Tiericide is an opportunity to fix this. They decided to make the problem worse instead, by LOWERING the relevant stats on the Megathron while simultaneously giving it the gimptastic layout. Hence page 49.
In fact, if people didn't had blinkers, may be they would have seen that the Hyperion would have replaced the Megathron as a fleet ship. But because they see "armor rep bonus", then the ship automagically swap in an invisibility sphere it seem...
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#1018 - 2013-04-10 08:47:30 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
2) The Hyperion is the only tier 3 Gallente BS. Because it has the **** layout, it isn't viable for any of the things every other tier 3 BS can do. The only fleet viable BS Gallente has currently is the Megathron (it has a good layout), but because of the tier system, its stats are WAY below par. Tiericide is an opportunity to fix this. They decided to make the problem worse instead, by LOWERING the relevant stats on the Megathron while simultaneously giving it the gimptastic layout. Hence page 49.
In fact, if people didn't had blinkers, may be they would have seen that the Hyperion would have replaced the Megathron as a fleet ship. But because they see "armor rep bonus", then the ship automagically swap in an invisibility sphere it seem...


You realize they were trying to give the Mega that inherently flawed 8-5-6 layout right? Basically trading one gimp for another?
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1019 - 2013-04-10 08:47:32 UTC
Roime wrote:

As a general note, idk why CCP doesn't use this opportunity to lift the whole battleship class to their former glory. 20% EHP, free extra turret+fitting for all, more sensor strength, lock range and capacitor. Ideally they would sit clearly above all other subcaps in damage, projection and staying power.

After Odyssey, ABCs will still rule.

P.S. "mobile armor battleship" is an oxymoron.

I kind of get this impression too...

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#1020 - 2013-04-10 08:57:44 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Roime wrote:

As a general note, idk why CCP doesn't use this opportunity to lift the whole battleship class to their former glory. 20% EHP, free extra turret+fitting for all, more sensor strength, lock range and capacitor. Ideally they would sit clearly above all other subcaps in damage, projection and staying power.

After Odyssey, ABCs will still rule.

P.S. "mobile armor battleship" is an oxymoron.

I kind of get this impression too...


I think this is the way to go too - it is the impression I got with "tiericide". Making all ships have equivalent numbers, and different roles.

CCP needs to realize, though, that some roles don't exist. Just because you want to design a "fast battleship" doesn't mean the role will magically appear - Assault BCs fill that role better. They do the same or more damage and have far more speed and versatility.

Battleships are mobile fortresses. Vulnerable to small ships, but excelling at putting serious pain downrange and taking punishment. Design these ships appropriately. Give them unique specializations - range, tank, EWAR, drones, support, you name it - but for the love of god don't stray from "big guns, big tank, and slow". Other ships do the roles outside that sphere far better.