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A nerf to the Warp Core Stabilizers
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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-04-02 15:06:44 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I'd go the other way, 'buff' Warp core stabs by reducing or removing their horrible downsides, making them more common. Then people will get used to the idea that you need 2 or 3 points often on a target to hold it, people will be more confident to roam solo since they can have sensible fits which include a stab or two, & this 'I can't solo lock down a ship so it's OP' expectation/mentality will go away because Warp Core stabs aren't fail PvP fits at that point.



Used to be like that years ago. But there were too many vagabonds with 2 stabs around and people whined too much of them

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#42 - 2013-04-02 15:34:29 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
which will put shield tanking ships at a disadvantage versus some armor tanking ships.

But... but... but, that's GREAT! MAGNIFICIENT! Almost spectacular! Finally we will see some armor tank in PvP!... .... ..... aww, what a dream it was :'(

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-04-02 21:10:24 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Call Rollard wrote:
This ruins PVP in low sec because you can never find anything to kill which is not using warp core stabs



What really ruins low sec pvp is how inhabitants react at the single vision of neutrals in local, not warp core stabilizers that are one of the very few tools players can use to actually go there and do something.

You guys make low sec the wasteland it is, you get what you deserve, don't blaim modules for your behavior.


People ignore the local. Its only until you warp in and engage them, they also engage and fight. Until they hit hull and warp away.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#44 - 2013-04-03 08:46:57 UTC
MystLynx wrote:
Damn, i dont like when my targets are stabbed, but i really dont see any problem with the mod.... Troll idea or...?
Bring more points if you know your target is stabbed.

same here, i don't like it, but it is balanced

the guy who fitted it made a choice, the ability to escape, vs tank or dps.

yes, more and more ppl are using them, but they just used a game mechanic to counter yours, why not using another game mechanics to, in your turn, counter them?

that's what i did, i bought a phobos, some corpmates bought faction points etc....

working as intended, balanced, no issue with that mod
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#45 - 2013-04-03 09:01:19 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
also i would have a good thought about things:

some of you are noticing that, more and more often, some target are getting away during fight while pointed.


with all the logic and knowledge of a pvp player, you are assuming they fitted enought wcs to get rid of your point(s).

for some of them, it might be right but what if they did NOT?

seeing the very same trend you did in lowsec pvp, we took mesures to counter it, yet to almost no avail, why?

because more and more often, some ship are able to warp even when a point is landed on them, while they shall not have been permitted to.

the server doesn't get the point event, while it is reported client side.

i'm not talking about ppl getting away after 20sec within a fight, bt those who magically warp when pointed at the start of a fight

recent examples, a pod scramed warped out, a shuttle pointed warped out, a rupture evaded a gate camp while pointed by 2 ppl, get alphaed next gate, fitting was not wcs, several thorax / vexor evaded HIC scripted point (HIC is a triple sebo phobos)


in each of thoses, the log shows the point landed, triggering the corresponding events (sentrys / SS loss etc...) BUT was not recorded as "preventing the warp" (all other conditions were OK, range etc....)

i think this is related to a latency issue server side, as we have all noticed recently, many things take longer than usual, and "pointing" is no exception.

now, one would say i have a bad connection / luck, maybe.

but:

1- this trend is noticed alliance wide, by all the pvp players (400+), across the world (mainly US / EU, some in Oceania / Asia)
2- happen almost only when server load is at the top (15h-22h)
3- doesn't happen on test server (because load is minimal?)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-04-03 10:55:52 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
also i would have a good thought about things:

some of you are noticing that, more and more often, some target are getting away during fight while pointed.


with all the logic and knowledge of a pvp player, you are assuming they fitted enought wcs to get rid of your point(s).

for some of them, it might be right but what if they did NOT?

seeing the very same trend you did in lowsec pvp, we took mesures to counter it, yet to almost no avail, why?

because more and more often, some ship are able to warp even when a point is landed on them, while they shall not have been permitted to.

the server doesn't get the point event, while it is reported client side.

i'm not talking about ppl getting away after 20sec within a fight, bt those who magically warp when pointed at the start of a fight

recent examples, a pod scramed warped out, a shuttle pointed warped out, a rupture evaded a gate camp while pointed by 2 ppl, get alphaed next gate, fitting was not wcs, several thorax / vexor evaded HIC scripted point (HIC is a triple sebo phobos)


in each of thoses, the log shows the point landed, triggering the corresponding events (sentrys / SS loss etc...) BUT was not recorded as "preventing the warp" (all other conditions were OK, range etc....)

i think this is related to a latency issue server side, as we have all noticed recently, many things take longer than usual, and "pointing" is no exception.

now, one would say i have a bad connection / luck, maybe.

but:

1- this trend is noticed alliance wide, by all the pvp players (400+), across the world (mainly US / EU, some in Oceania / Asia)
2- happen almost only when server load is at the top (15h-22h)
3- doesn't happen on test server (because load is minimal?)



Well try to simulate with friends of yours, fraps it an send to CCP. If that trully happens is a grivious bug that needs to be fixed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-04-03 11:23:16 UTC
Warp stabs already take up a low slot each (effectively meaning you can't fit an armour tank on a stabbed ship if you also want to be able to do damage) and noticably gimp your targetting speed and range. If anything, the penalties should be lower - no other e-war counter in the game puts you at such a disadvantage.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#48 - 2013-04-03 13:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Kagura Nikon wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
also i would have a good thought about things:

some of you are noticing that, more and more often, some target are getting away during fight while pointed.


with all the logic and knowledge of a pvp player, you are assuming they fitted enought wcs to get rid of your point(s).

for some of them, it might be right but what if they did NOT?

seeing the very same trend you did in lowsec pvp, we took mesures to counter it, yet to almost no avail, why?

because more and more often, some ship are able to warp even when a point is landed on them, while they shall not have been permitted to.

the server doesn't get the point event, while it is reported client side.

i'm not talking about ppl getting away after 20sec within a fight, bt those who magically warp when pointed at the start of a fight

recent examples, a pod scramed warped out, a shuttle pointed warped out, a rupture evaded a gate camp while pointed by 2 ppl, get alphaed next gate, fitting was not wcs, several thorax / vexor evaded HIC scripted point (HIC is a triple sebo phobos)


in each of thoses, the log shows the point landed, triggering the corresponding events (sentrys / SS loss etc...) BUT was not recorded as "preventing the warp" (all other conditions were OK, range etc....)

i think this is related to a latency issue server side, as we have all noticed recently, many things take longer than usual, and "pointing" is no exception.

now, one would say i have a bad connection / luck, maybe.

but:

1- this trend is noticed alliance wide, by all the pvp players (400+), across the world (mainly US / EU, some in Oceania / Asia)
2- happen almost only when server load is at the top (15h-22h)
3- doesn't happen on test server (because load is minimal?)



Well try to simulate with friends of yours, fraps it an send to CCP. If that trully happens is a grivious bug that needs to be fixed.


we are trying ATM to get it caught on tape, but from past experience, CCP will answer, as always, that this is "client side lag" Cry

and yes, it unfortunately happen, like all the other related bugs like commands taking ages to be recognized (stop ship, docking, warping etc.....)

last week i wing warped around 10 nano fitted vaga who were already all aligned, half of them needed around 5 extra second to initiate warp (warp message was sent as usual, but they remained "stuck" displaying warpin, not moving).

or the 5 seconds delay between the moment you land, and you can start locking tgt (5 sec between you resumed displaying speed instead of warping, and you actually can lock something, during this delay, you are fully lockable tho...), i'm still hearing logi's bitchin' about it.....

this is hapening so much lately i start having corpmate questionning about this game's worth playing (we are pvp oriented, and when you have all thoses again and again, loosing ships about it, CCP telling you they cannot refund cause "log show nothing abnormal", this is unederstandable)
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-04-03 17:25:11 UTC
Call Rollard wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Call Rollard wrote:
This ruins PVP in low sec because you can never find anything to kill which is not using warp core stabs



What really ruins low sec pvp is how inhabitants react at the single vision of neutrals in local, not warp core stabilizers that are one of the very few tools players can use to actually go there and do something.

You guys make low sec the wasteland it is, you get what you deserve, don't blaim modules for your behavior.


People ignore the local. Its only until you warp in and engage them, they also engage and fight. Until they hit hull and warp away.



Well in this case it's fair game, each one wants the kill but not die. Using in game tools to achieve personal goals are intended game play.
I remember someone in GD just moaning at levels I've never seen before about DCU II and the fact it's a great pvp module specially for armor ships, the guy was just mad about it.

This warp core stabilizers is exactly the same thing. There are tools to prevent this or at least get a high chance to prevent this like 3 point scrams in case the guy is just 2 WCS fit, alpha strikes or high dps fits and overheat.

The module it self is not a problem, it's how players use them that might interfere in some aspects of pvp but there are counters to this including fly with other players with tackle.
Lost a stab/null T3 once vs a gang that made it to target and point me several times, I lost my game they won theirs, it's a fair game I just got outsmarted/played, nothing wrong and nothing to fuss about.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-04-05 01:09:52 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Call Rollard wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Call Rollard wrote:
This ruins PVP in low sec because you can never find anything to kill which is not using warp core stabs



What really ruins low sec pvp is how inhabitants react at the single vision of neutrals in local, not warp core stabilizers that are one of the very few tools players can use to actually go there and do something.

You guys make low sec the wasteland it is, you get what you deserve, don't blaim modules for your behavior.


People ignore the local. Its only until you warp in and engage them, they also engage and fight. Until they hit hull and warp away.



Well in this case it's fair game, each one wants the kill but not die. Using in game tools to achieve personal goals are intended game play.
I remember someone in GD just moaning at levels I've never seen before about DCU II and the fact it's a great pvp module specially for armor ships, the guy was just mad about it.

This warp core stabilizers is exactly the same thing. There are tools to prevent this or at least get a high chance to prevent this like 3 point scrams in case the guy is just 2 WCS fit, alpha strikes or high dps fits and overheat.

The module it self is not a problem, it's how players use them that might interfere in some aspects of pvp but there are counters to this including fly with other players with tackle.
Lost a stab/null T3 once vs a gang that made it to target and point me several times, I lost my game they won theirs, it's a fair game I just got outsmarted/played, nothing wrong and nothing to fuss about.


I wasn't talking about 5-15 sized gangs. I'm saying solo/very small gang PVP (1-5)

PVP is becoming impossible in 1-5 sized gangs in low sec due to warp core stabilizers, your gang gets a point/scram on the enemy gang. Your friends come and the entire gang warps away.
Blue 101
Future Holdings
#51 - 2013-04-05 01:46:32 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
also i would have a good thought about things:

some of you are noticing that, more and more often, some target are getting away during fight while pointed.


with all the logic and knowledge of a pvp player, you are assuming they fitted enought wcs to get rid of your point(s).

for some of them, it might be right but what if they did NOT?

seeing the very same trend you did in lowsec pvp, we took mesures to counter it, yet to almost no avail, why?

because more and more often, some ship are able to warp even when a point is landed on them, while they shall not have been permitted to.

the server doesn't get the point event, while it is reported client side.

i'm not talking about ppl getting away after 20sec within a fight, bt those who magically warp when pointed at the start of a fight

recent examples, a pod scramed warped out, a shuttle pointed warped out, a rupture evaded a gate camp while pointed by 2 ppl, get alphaed next gate, fitting was not wcs, several thorax / vexor evaded HIC scripted point (HIC is a triple sebo phobos)


in each of thoses, the log shows the point landed, triggering the corresponding events (sentrys / SS loss etc...) BUT was not recorded as "preventing the warp" (all other conditions were OK, range etc....)

i think this is related to a latency issue server side, as we have all noticed recently, many things take longer than usual, and "pointing" is no exception.

now, one would say i have a bad connection / luck, maybe.

but:

1- this trend is noticed alliance wide, by all the pvp players (400+), across the world (mainly US / EU, some in Oceania / Asia)
2- happen almost only when server load is at the top (15h-22h)
3- doesn't happen on test server (because load is minimal?)


I have suffer this with my other character lot of times, even managed to record with fraps one ship pointed with a HIC jumping after the message "xxx is warp scrambling yyy", we think its due server lag plus the deficient internet service in our country. And its infuriating as hell.

Not english native speaker, please forgive any posible mistakes.
Rebel Witch
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2013-04-05 02:01:49 UTC
bad idea

a few years ago warp core stabs were nerfed so that you needed two to stop from being scrambled, it use to be you just needed one.

So now this thread wants to .....why dont you just say "CCP make warp core stabs go away pleez" because that is essentially all you want is easy kills and no options for those who dont want to fight.
Valkyri Peacekeeper
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-04-09 12:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkyri Peacekeeper
whoop dee do... i never thought even pvp'ers whined boohoo if no-killmail-served by mommy...

BooHoo

Eve is about using your mind when playing...not just expect a Hand of God method that smears WIN for you all the time.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#54 - 2013-04-09 13:04:39 UTC
Quote:
I'd go the other way, 'buff' Warp core stabs by reducing or removing their horrible downsides, making them more common. Then people will get used to the idea that you need 2 or 3 points often on a target to hold it, people will be more confident to roam solo since they can have sensible fits which include a stab or two, & this 'I can't solo lock down a ship so it's OP' expectation/mentality will go away because Warp Core stabs aren't fail PvP fits at that point.


...And how exactly would any solo pilot ever kill anything when it can just warp away?
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#55 - 2013-04-09 13:11:21 UTC
TL;DR

stop bitching and moaning
fly with friends (it is an MMO after all)
Script your HIC's
drop a mid on other ships and fit remote sebos to boost your HIC

= recieve bacon and tears in local.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#56 - 2013-04-09 13:17:36 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
I'd go the other way, 'buff' Warp core stabs by reducing or removing their horrible downsides, making them more common. Then people will get used to the idea that you need 2 or 3 points often on a target to hold it, people will be more confident to roam solo since they can have sensible fits which include a stab or two, & this 'I can't solo lock down a ship so it's OP' expectation/mentality will go away because Warp Core stabs aren't fail PvP fits at that point.


...And how exactly would any solo pilot ever kill anything when it can just warp away?

Why should a tactic like pointing not have some form of effective counter, especially considering the higher level of preparation demanded to use it?

Consider:
0. Target determines fight to be unwinnable. Chooses to escape.
1. Attacker decides to use a point to prevent fleeing target.
2. Target anticipates a point, and fits a stab to counter. Possible multiple stabs if more points need to be countered.
3. Attacker either gets specialty ship, (or gets friends), to help overwhelm that stab.

They took their game to the next level, mounting that stab.

If you want to complain that the game is cheating by ignoring warp commands or point effects, that is one thing, but don't complain about defenses and tactics short of that when the means to fight them already exists.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-04-09 13:49:54 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
TL;DR

stop bitching and moaning
fly with friends (it is an MMO after all)
Script your HIC's
drop a mid on other ships and fit remote sebos to boost your HIC

= recieve bacon and tears in local.


If you actually read what I said, even if you fly with friends its still a problem, I am talking about 2-4 people.

HIC's are slow and expensive ships, if you wanted to roam into FW complexes in low sec, you wouldn't be able to take a HIC in.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#58 - 2013-04-09 14:22:36 UTC
Call Rollard wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
TL;DR

stop bitching and moaning
fly with friends (it is an MMO after all)
Script your HIC's
drop a mid on other ships and fit remote sebos to boost your HIC

= recieve bacon and tears in local.


If you actually read what I said, even if you fly with friends its still a problem, I am talking about 2-4 people.

HIC's are slow and expensive ships, if you wanted to roam into FW complexes in low sec, you wouldn't be able to take a HIC in.


dual faction scram on an arazu will cover it, most people wont fit more than 3 wcs's and faction scrams have 2 point strength, some even have 3!

learn to play, dont learn to cry harder.
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-04-09 14:55:30 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Call Rollard wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
TL;DR

stop bitching and moaning
fly with friends (it is an MMO after all)
Script your HIC's
drop a mid on other ships and fit remote sebos to boost your HIC

= recieve bacon and tears in local.


If you actually read what I said, even if you fly with friends its still a problem, I am talking about 2-4 people.

HIC's are slow and expensive ships, if you wanted to roam into FW complexes in low sec, you wouldn't be able to take a HIC in.


dual faction scram on an arazu will cover it, most people wont fit more than 3 wcs's and faction scrams have 2 point strength, some even have 3!

learn to play, dont learn to cry harder.


Arazu can not fit in FW complexes once again I can say. I'm talking about Frigates, dessies and cruisers. Primairly Dessies and Frigates are the issue.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#60 - 2013-04-09 15:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Call Rollard wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Call Rollard wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
TL;DR

stop bitching and moaning
fly with friends (it is an MMO after all)
Script your HIC's
drop a mid on other ships and fit remote sebos to boost your HIC

= recieve bacon and tears in local.


If you actually read what I said, even if you fly with friends its still a problem, I am talking about 2-4 people.

HIC's are slow and expensive ships, if you wanted to roam into FW complexes in low sec, you wouldn't be able to take a HIC in.


dual faction scram on an arazu will cover it, most people wont fit more than 3 wcs's and faction scrams have 2 point strength, some even have 3!

learn to play, dont learn to cry harder.


Arazu can not fit in FW complexes once again I can say. I'm talking about Frigates, dessies and cruisers. Primairly Dessies and Frigates are the issue.


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Keres
hero tank it and put 4 points on it + sig amps

seriously i shouldnt be giving pvp advice in a thread in F&I.


but essentially what you want is to change a well used and balanced mod so that your fail form of pvp isnt as fail.