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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Increased opportunities for PvP - Jump drives work only in nulsec

First post
Author
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#41 - 2013-04-03 07:55:05 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Quote:
It would be no longer possible to use alts in NPC corps to do this job, as they would be defenceless against attacks from griefers and losec pirates. Sov could opt to use Frog or other services to move their stuff out of empire, but that will hurt drastically the profitability of such a move.


This is nonsense. There is no reason why in high sec an NPC corp hauler alt would not work thus side-stepping war decs. Further, said NPC alt can join any fleet he is invited too, so again no reason not to use an alt in an NPC corp.

I don't see why any of the above paragraph has to obtain based on the changes you are suggesting.


You DO know a fleet is no defence with current game mechanics?

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#42 - 2013-04-03 08:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal y.
Your suggestion had no validity to begin with, and as such no argument can diminish that.


For my part, the offer made here still stand: When you give an argument for your idea, with either evidence or sound reasoning to support it, and that idea is in line with your stated goal, I'll be interested in giving it feedback. I'm certain that's a sentiment shared by others.
Until then ...

Cool

On the contrary, the postings by my detractors have provided all the reasons why it's a very valid suggestion. The obsessive belief that JF is the only way to supply sov space, as shown in most of the postings, demonstrates that conflict will increase should sov choose to keep open supply lines to/from hisec. Losec pirates and hisec gankers would have more opportunities.

Conflict will increase should sov choose to become self-sufficient, as resources in nul become far more important to sov warfare and, therefore, a more important target.

Conflict will increase should sov not do enough of either and the current incumbents wither due to resource starvation, giving others the chance to move in. This point would be the one to scare sov the most, as hisec brings its industrial might to bear and alliances fancy a go at null.

As I've stated before: while I understand the reluctance of the current incumbents of sov to see their stranglehold loosen, that doesn't invalidate my idea in the least.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#43 - 2013-04-03 13:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
To quote Malcanis -- "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

Granted "smaller alliances" don't necessarily mean "new players" ... but seriously, take a look at the map sometime.

Goons -- 121 systems, 71 outposts
TEST - 173 systems, 61 outposts
Tribal Band - 53 systems, 22 outposts
Raiden - 64 systems, 21 outposts
CVA - 43 systems, 30 outposts
Scrap Iron Flotilla - 18 systems, 6 outposts


New, unheard of alliance - 1 system, 0 outposts ... suppose they could be basing out of NPC null... but the stations (not to mention the mining, etc) are going to be touchy.

Any one of the current alliances could pretty readily put a mining fleet together. If not from people already in the alliance, then from their alts who're mainly in the mission and industry fields in hisec.

Edit -- and more to the point, have you ever tried taking out a large deathstar (or variants thereof) with nothing but subcaps?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#44 - 2013-04-03 20:04:56 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

Any one of the current alliances could pretty readily put a mining fleet together. If not from people already in the alliance, then from their alts who're mainly in the mission and industry fields in hisec.

Which says volumes about those who howl over the very thought of JFs having more problems.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#45 - 2013-04-04 09:48:10 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Any one of the current alliances could pretty readily put a mining fleet together. If not from people already in the alliance, then from their alts who're mainly in the mission and industry fields in hisec.

Which says volumes about those who howl over the very thought of JFs having more problems.


That said, I like how you totally ignored the rest of my post. Cool

capships have their uses in lowsec.

Rorqual - do I really need to explain this one? Either way, I've seen a fair few of these in deep low doing their thing...

Carrier - Triage / POS repair ... though they can throw down DPS pretty well too.
Dread - anti-triage carrier / POS

yeah, you get people hotdropping you from time to time; but is this any different than getting caught as a gatecamper with a support fleet jumping through right after you take the bait?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#46 - 2013-04-04 16:19:39 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Any one of the current alliances could pretty readily put a mining fleet together. If not from people already in the alliance, then from their alts who're mainly in the mission and industry fields in hisec.

Which says volumes about those who howl over the very thought of JFs having more problems.


That said, I like how you totally ignored the rest of my post. Cool

capships have their uses in lowsec.

Rorqual - do I really need to explain this one? Either way, I've seen a fair few of these in deep low doing their thing...

Carrier - Triage / POS repair ... though they can throw down DPS pretty well too.
Dread - anti-triage carrier / POS

yeah, you get people hotdropping you from time to time; but is this any different than getting caught as a gatecamper with a support fleet jumping through right after you take the bait?


Appreciation of my Evasive Manouevres is always welcome, thank you. :)

Yes, this will have far-reaching ramifications for the game as a whole.

However:

  • 80% of the player base is in hisec, or so I'm led to believe;
  • CCP want more people to go into nulsec. This has been stated on many occasions;
  • Sov space is in the vice-like grasp of a few alliances, supported by hisec.

It makes sense to do something to make sov more attractive to the 80%, rather than easier for the 20% to remain dominant. This simple change to the game will make it more likely by making local industry a LOT more important, due to remote industry being harder to access. This will alter the game balance, favouring more hte hisec industrials. Obviously, else sov wouldn't depend on them so much.

The attitudes of many posters show they will whine tooth-and-nail to keep open the caravan lanes; hence the increase in PvP opportunities. While I appreciate the current possessors not wanting this change I believe it will push the game in the direction as stated above.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations
#47 - 2013-04-04 19:21:57 UTC
Increasing PvP opportunities is good but this is not good for NS overall. NS needs some help to be more attractive and this would only serve to hurt NS IMHO.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#48 - 2013-04-04 19:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Doe
I don't see how this creates more pvp, asakai wasn't in null. This is basically a long thread about your inability to plan ahead when going after jfs.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#49 - 2013-04-06 21:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Right, first of, the OP has the right to post an idea to discuss and has the right to expect a civil and healthy discussion as a result. You don't have to agree, but post your arguments in a civil manner please. This goes both ways by the way.

Thread cleaned and reopened.

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Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#50 - 2013-04-08 17:38:11 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
I don't see how this creates more pvp, asakai wasn't in null. This is basically a long thread about your inability to plan ahead when going after jfs.

Not so.

The game has settled into this stagnant doughnut surrounding empire. Sov is inaccessible to anyone not already part of it, or wanting to bow to those who have already claimed it. The incumbents keep themselves 'unsinkable' by heavy use of empire industry.

My idea was not about going after JF as such. It's all about wrecking the supply lines between sov and the part of New Eden that is effectively shut out of sov. As JF are used heavily in the caravans they are the obvious targets of this initiative, and empires refusing to allow the activation of JD is a very simple and VERY effective way of making this happen.

Now, contrary to the snears that were in evidence before the ISD-carnage on this topic, I have been active in sov space for long enough to understand stuff; obviously not THIS toon. Some of the points regarding industry were valid to a degree.

Pos refineries. Yeah, the yield from these suckers stinks, however the refineries themselves don't need to be altered. A simple fix would be to incorporate the players refining skills into the yield calculations. This would enable players to get decent refining from even those 35% refineries. Messing with the refinery yields themselves would break the 'reward based on effort' ideal. You want high yields then train the refining skills.

Outposts are odd. While I understand the specialisation of them, I fail to understand why they can't all be upgraded to enable them to function in a similar fashion. I don't want everything to be homogenised, so it ought to be harder to get good refining on an amarr outpost than a Matar one; it's how they're designed. However, it ought to be possible for all types of outpost to boost all types of functionality through upgrades.

I doubt these changes would have any effect, however. Sov is so addicted to easy replenishment of armaments from empire that the incumbents will fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo, and I don't mean in-game fighting. Fair enough, they don't want to lose their stranglehold on sov. However, that in no way invalidates the proposal, which I believe MUST be credible in most peoples' eyes or it wouldn't have attracted such hostility.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#51 - 2013-04-08 18:26:52 UTC
I have a better idea.

Go wreck the supply lines with ships, bubbles and lots of friends who are not in the blue doughnut. This way you actually add some value to the game because this idea has "stink" written all over it with smellovision ink.....

Killing jumpdrives to hurt null supply lines is just as fail as claiming that preventing starships from using stargates will allow new players to go about life ungriefed by vets in starter systems. The unrelated-ness of the comparisons made in the above example is 2nd only to the massive gap in your logic behind this proposal.

Buffing industry in null as seems to be the agenda of every powerblock with a CSM rep will only worsen the problem because given said buff and nulls complete independence of hi-sec, there would be no need for Jump drives to re-stock your weapon lockers to keep the crack addicts going. This will in turn change this "roadblock" of new alliances entering Sov warefare into an Iron curtain that will forever keep small timers out in the cold ghetto.

Now I dont know about you, but I see no need to buy a 7 bil isk JF to move stuff when I am not forced to move anything... Or can only move it from 0.0 to 0.0, which in turn will lead to a reduction of PvP opportunities since nobody will bother moving any assets when they can simply make them anywhere and in so doing, have the exact opposite effect you were hoping to achieve. So you see, your wonderful idea of limiting Jumpdrives to null is only going to break null even more (since every cap in the game will be moved to null) and make low-sec even more of a ghost town for PvP than it already is.

And for the record, stupid ideas that rub people up the wrong way always attracts allot of negative attention, regardless of the credibility of the idea or the nerve you strike in proposing it.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#52 - 2013-04-08 18:29:57 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
I don't see how this creates more pvp, asakai wasn't in null. This is basically a long thread about your inability to plan ahead when going after jfs.

Not so.

The game has settled into this stagnant doughnut surrounding empire.


And this is not because of Jumpdrives or the dependance on Hi-sec Industry.

This is 100% because of NAP fests between members of OTEC in this game who want to keep their little monopoly on moon mining.

So your real problem is emergent gameplay and your solution is to break the game.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#53 - 2013-04-09 07:13:37 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
I have a better idea.

Go wreck the supply lines with ships, bubbles and lots of friends who are not in the blue doughnut. This way you actually add some value to the game because this idea has "stink" written all over it with smellovision ink.....

... which JF avoids by using its JD.

Asuka Solo wrote:

Killing jumpdrives to hurt null supply lines is just as fail as claiming that preventing starships from using stargates will allow new players to go about life ungriefed by vets in starter systems. The unrelated-ness of the comparisons made in the above example is 2nd only to the massive gap in your logic behind this proposal.

This is just babble. You are genuinely afraid of this idea of mine, aren't you?

Asuka Solo wrote:

Buffing industry in null as seems to be the agenda of every powerblock with a CSM rep will only worsen the problem because given said buff and nulls complete independence of hi-sec, there would be no need for Jump drives to re-stock your weapon lockers to keep the crack addicts going. This will in turn change this "roadblock" of new alliances entering Sov warefare into an Iron curtain that will forever keep small timers out in the cold ghetto.

Now I dont know about you, but I see no need to buy a 7 bil isk JF to move stuff when I am not forced to move anything... Or can only move it from 0.0 to 0.0, which in turn will lead to a reduction of PvP opportunities since nobody will bother moving any assets when they can simply make them anywhere and in so doing, have the exact opposite effect you were hoping to achieve.

THANK-YOU! You're the only one who isn't whining about nulsec industry needing to be fixed. Leaving it as it is was what I was saying at the start of this topic. Cope or wither.

Asuka Solo wrote:

So you see, your wonderful idea of limiting Jumpdrives to null is only going to break null even more (since every cap in the game will be moved to null) and make low-sec even more of a ghost town for PvP than it already is.

PvP in losec is stifled by the ability of caps to be hot-dropped on fleets. Only those alliances with enough funds can field them, destroying PvP for the newer players. Removing the caps will level the field for all, allowing these relative newbies a chance to engage fully. Only those addicted to caps will be unable to field a sub-cap field capable of engaging, so you see this idea will break nothing regarding PvP; it will only enhance it.

Asuka Solo wrote:

And for the record, stupid ideas that rub people up the wrong way always attracts allot of negative attention, regardless of the credibility of the idea or the nerve you strike in proposing it.


For the record: that vested interests pour scorn on an idea doesn't make it stupid. That you call it stupid says more about you than the idea.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#54 - 2013-04-09 07:18:27 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
I don't see how this creates more pvp, asakai wasn't in null. This is basically a long thread about your inability to plan ahead when going after jfs.

Not so.

The game has settled into this stagnant doughnut surrounding empire.


And this is not because of Jumpdrives or the dependance on Hi-sec Industry.

This is 100% because of NAP fests between members of OTEC in this game who want to keep their little monopoly on moon mining.

So your real problem is emergent gameplay and your solution is to break the game.


Disrupting the supply lines works both ways, how to get the goo to hisec - read jita - in order to capitalise on it. Shipping it in is one thing; getting your ship out again is another matter. Their little monopoly takes a caning without secure shipping lanes.

As for the last sentence: this doesn't break the game, it just scares people who are involved in this monopoly. It also shakes hard the monopoly's hold on sov space. This must be the case, else you wouldn't be so aggressively against it.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2013-04-09 08:54:26 UTC
Quote:
Cope or wither.


Neither of you two are thinking.

1. Jump freighters are still helpful in Null--i.e. moving large amounts of stuff quickly and relatively safely from one 0.0 system to another.

2. Also with this proposed change alliances with a high sec/null sec entrance will have a definite advantage. Some examples here are Goons/CFC, TEST/HBC.

3. You cannot secure the shipping lines with current game mechanics. Any fleet of 150 tornadoes in low sec will surely alpha any JF they lock up. No "convoy" fleet will be able to stop this. It is even conceivable that some low sec groups will make capitals in "their" systems and will be able to use them with some degree of impunity because the notion of a hot drop/counter drop is no longer possible.

So based on the above it is entirely possible null will become even more of big blue donut with certain alliances/coalitions gaining a significant advantage over competitors thereby forcing them out of null sec. The monopoly on moon goo could become worse.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#56 - 2013-04-09 08:56:16 UTC
This would not increase opportunities for pvp, in fact it limits it.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#57 - 2013-04-09 09:26:34 UTC
Yes, lets ruin faction warfare logistics! Believe it or not, some of us suffer from station lockouts on a day to day basis and go through ships as fast as nullsec does.

By limiting jump freighters jump drive to nullsec, how do you reckon Lowsec would be supplied? Specifically - those within faction warfare. Are we supposed to haul everything by crane?
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2013-04-09 10:12:43 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
Yes, lets ruin faction warfare logistics! Believe it or not, some of us suffer from station lockouts on a day to day basis and go through ships as fast as nullsec does.

By limiting jump freighters jump drive to nullsec, how do you reckon Lowsec would be supplied? Specifically - those within faction warfare. Are we supposed to haul everything by crane?


Clearly you fear this idea. Therefore you must be part of OTEC and the idea is simply marvelous.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Velicitia
XS Tech
#59 - 2013-04-09 12:53:09 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:

However:

  • 80% of the player base is in hisec, or so I'm led to believe;
  • CCP want more people to go into nulsec. This has been stated on many occasions;
  • Sov space is in the vice-like grasp of a few alliances, supported by hisec.

It makes sense to do something to make sov more attractive to the 80%, rather than easier for the 20% to remain dominant. This simple change to the game will make it more likely by making local industry a LOT more important, due to remote industry being harder to access. This will alter the game balance, favouring more hte hisec industrials. Obviously, else sov wouldn't depend on them so much.

The attitudes of many posters show they will whine tooth-and-nail to keep open the caravan lanes; hence the increase in PvP opportunities. While I appreciate the current possessors not wanting this change I believe it will push the game in the direction as stated above.


IIRC, that's 80% of the characters, not 80% of the players living in empire. So, you have to factor out the nullsec alts, and the lowsec pirate hauler alts too.

Fact of the matter is though, lowsec is a "semi-safe" place for new corps and alliances to get their feet wet with capships.

Though -- I don't follow your reasoning that "getting rid of JD usage in empire" will help hisec industrialists. I mean, if it's that much harder to move crap from empire to nullsec; the nullsec alliances will just turn to their internal sources for everything, and that'll (for a while anyway) gut the empire markets, until all the oversupply is finally bled off.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Fatbear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-04-09 13:07:21 UTC
What do you jokers think happened before Jump Freighters were put in?

You actually had convoys, with escorts, and interdictions/commerce raiding. Hell, convoy runs from Tenal down to Taisy 'back in the day' were some of the best fleets I've been on.