Player Features and Ideas Discussion

That's a pretty awful Domi fit. I hope you didn't try PVPing with that.

Here's my in depth analysis of the problem regarding Gallente Battleships.

I will focus on one of the most important roles, if not the primary role, of Battleships - Fleet Line DPS. I say this because Battleships are far too vulnerable to smaller ships to be viable solo, and are of limited use in small gang engagements, where they are outshined by Battlecruisers in most aspects. Their roles basically boil down to fleet warfare and PvE.

Fleet combat has some rather unique properties that limit the viability of certain weapon systems. Because of the high mobility and ever changing nature of fleet combat, with constant MWD pulsing, fluctuating ranges, and very common on-grid warps for relocation, drones find themselves marginally useful. Sentries are only viable at one position, and mobile drones will spend more time flying towards primaries that pop before they get there than actually doing anything of use. Because of this fact, drone DPS will not be included in the following analysis.

Another such property is the ranges at which fleet combat take place. Short range combat simply is not a viable option, for two reasons - fleets are not singular points, so when each ships optimal is in the 10-15km range, any primary called is likely outside a good chunk of the fleet's optimal (or even range altogether), severely limiting a fleet's ability to coordinate and apply its full power. The second reason that short range fleets are not really a viable option is bubbles - when bubbling your enemy means bubbling yourself as well, the tactical advantage they represent is severely diminished.

Because of this, fleet combat tends to take place at medium to long ranges. Long rage combat is dominated by the "Tier 3" Battlecruisers, as their layouts, bonuses and speed allow them to kite while applying high damage far more effectively than any Battleship could ever hope to. This brings us to the aspect of PvP where Battleships truly shine - medium range line DPS. In this role, a ship must be able to dish out severe punishment while having enough staying power for friendly logistics to keep it up. The latter involves having very high, balanced resist profiles. Battleships fill this role better than any other subcap class in EVE, with the possible exception of Tech 3 Cruisers in very specific cases.

Now, let's look at the stats on three common ships used to fill this role: the Alpha Maelstrom, Fleet Rokh and Hellcat Abaddon.

Alpha Maelstrom:
DPS: 600 @ 40km, 400 @ 70km
EHP: 123k
Resists: 71 / 77 / 83 / 70
Bonus Perk: Extreme Alpha

This ship is an all around solid choice, even with a completely wasted ship bonus. I won't go into too much depth, but resist bonuses are completely superior to active bonuses because they benefit both active and buffer tanks. Let's lose them if we can.

Fleet Rokh:
DPS: 540 @ 60km, 300 @ 140km
EHP: 133k
Resists: 78 / 83 / 73 / 77
Bonus Perk: Extreme Range Flexibility

This ship not only has a fantastic tank, but it can actually compete with Tier 3 Battlecruisers that attempt to harass it. It fills its role incredibly well, and there is a reason the HBC relies on it primarily today.

Hellcat Abaddon:
DPS: 650 @ 60km
EHP: 125k
Resists: 68 / 79 / 79 / 77
Bonus Perk: Extremely High Tracking

This is not as common today, but served its role as a line DPS Battleship not long ago. Its tank is roughly average for the role, resist profile decent, and its range is severely capped, but its tracking is so high it can dismantle support ships in the hostile fleet without relying on friendly support to do so. Not to be underestimated.

Gallente has not had a fleet-viable Battleship for many years now. Because the Hyperion's slot layout and bonuses are so terrible, trying to be in between two roles and as a result filling neither even remotely well, it simply is not an option. The Dominix is too drone-focused to be fleet viable except in very specific roles. That leaves only the Megathron, which simply cannot even hope to match the stats represented by the other three races' line DPS Battleships. This is the best it can do, using railguns for very obvious reasons:

Megathron:
DPS: 495 @ 40km, 370 @ 70km
EHP: 105k
Resists: 71 / 63 / 63 / 49
Bonus Perk: None

This ship is using a CPU rig, yet still cannot fit hardeners, meaning it is incapable of overheating its tank in case of being called primary or being bombed. This is already a liability brought on by its low CPU. Its tank may have some meat to it, but it remains very low by Battleship standards, and its resist profile is absolutely abysmal. This makes it extremely difficult to keep up under hostile fire, and gives it a resist hole very easy for hostiles to exploit. And the final nail in the coffin is its completely lackluster DPS - while it can do somewhat respectable DPS at 40km (it is still low), it completely falls off the radar any farther out.

Tiericide was an opportunity to fix this problem. By removing the whole tier system, a formerly tier 2 Battleship like the Megathron could be elevated to the fleet effectiveness every other race has. All it would take is another lowslot, potentially an 8th turret slot (though this is less important). If I had been the one doing the first draft, it would have lost the utility high, gained a low and CPU, and had its base armor HP buffed somewhat.

Instead, we got a Megathron trying really hard to be a Hyperion, and as a result failing horrendously for the exact same reasons today's Hyperion does - the slot layout does not allow it to excel in any role. It is either a fast shield tanked bullseye or a fast armor tanked bullseye. This is frankly a terrible direction to take this ship.

So, CCP, all I ask of you is this: let Gallente have a line DPS Battleship. Please.

Nearly the perfect answer Adriel , I would also like to point out as others have, a ROF bonus to get this "similar damage" is also going to cost us more cap. So it's a net loss of some dmg, some cap and some armor for an increase of 7ms to the base speed and a mid slot that we really didn't ask for. And you wonder why we aren't pleased with the changes.

My last post before bed
Hyperion will be ok when armor tanking get fixed (and rep bonuses reduce cap also)
Megathron looks good IMO
Dominix needs some help, targeting range too short to use the ship to its fullest extend, needs +15km targeting range and needs +100% drone control range as a Role Bonus

As a player with Gallente BS V and Large Hybrid V with high drone skills, I am rather unimpressed by the changes.

The removal of a lowslot on the megathron feels like a nerf to me. The megathron is usually always armor tanked due to the utility you need for the mods as a blaster boat. I'd rather imo you remove a high slot and move it to the mid slot rather than using a low slot.

The Hyperion is still crap imo. Armor Repair bonuses are fail for a large blaster ship. You have cap using guns, with heavy cap using utility, and with cap using tank. There's no realistic way you can provide cap to everything running on that ship without burning all your cap boosters.

+1 to us needing a fleet BS. Here's a suggestion: mega becomes combat role while Hyperion becomes attack. Mega is quite similar to armor Rokh, but more DPS and less tank (dmg + rof hull bonuses). The Hyperion gets better agility and a tracking bonus instead of DPS.

But I think we need something else before these changes.... armor tanking 2.0. The Hyperion will be the only t1 to use LAR/LAAR. And "armor tanking 2.0" will potentially totally change how these modules work. In light of this how useful is it to think about Hyperion now?

(And if armor tanking 2.0 doesn't arrive with odyssey I will throw out my Myrms and bow to Amarr supremacy)

PS, will the 5->4% resist nerf be propagated to all hulls or is it BS only?

Dear CCP,

here is my two cents,

I know you "want to keep the active armor rep" why not move it off the Hyp period. It is not working for the ship at all.

Give the armor rep bonus to the Domi, Increase the powergrid to the Domi problem solved with the "lets keep active armor bonus".


Now that is out of the way

make the Mega the combat battleship leave it mostly the same but adjust the hit points


Make the Hyperion your attack Battleship, keep the Mids, keep the lows,
Reduce its mass, Make it fast

Tracking bonus
Speed bonus or Mass reduction bonus


Problem solved


your welcome!

Lol.

Also, you are wrong. More PvP happens in Nullsec than High, Low and WHs combined.

And if you think a BS is going to outperform a well flown BC in a gang, I don't even know what to say. Regarding short range BSes not being viable in fleets, did you read my post? Have you ever been a part of a fleet engagement?

HINT: I was not talking about sitting on an undock / gate with a half dozen buddies in interceptors and BCs really hoping someone stupid passes through.

Incorrect. Your fights are larger in scale. Fewer in frequency. In comparison to Empire you use battleships very rarely.

Dear TESTie. Subject is rebalancing battleships. Not whether you measure up to my knee.

Since you asked: http://www.buccaneers.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16756649