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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#421 - 2013-04-09 00:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
Havegun Willtravel wrote:
Using 5 Praetro EV-900's you'd neut the same amount. And not use any of your own cap in the process. Neut drones are not a common choice, but they can work. They become a reasonable choice in a 150 or 175 drone bay with 125 bandwidth <-- Hint Hint Rise.


The proposed Mega only has 100mb of bandwidth, meaning you can use at most four. If we're going to change the proposed slot layout, it's honestly way better off staying 8/4/7 with the bay reduction, than it is with a 7/5/7 layout, but with a larger drone bay/bandwidth so it can viably use neut drones instead of a heavy neut. That still doesn't take into account how retardedly easy it is to mitigate drone neuting, which is enough to make them a poor decision without even needing to take drone bandwidth into account.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#422 - 2013-04-09 00:11:08 UTC
Grideris wrote:
The problem with what you're trying to do with regards to the Hyperion is that you want to keep it active tanking, but it can't tank enough without the extra capacitor from the second cap booster (in it's current, changed state). And that's not looking into the fitting issues (mainly centred around PG) you have trying to fit dual reps and Ions (let alone Neutrons - good luck with that). Admittedly going for a passive tank would work a lot better now because of the extra low slot, but then you're wasting the bonus and you have to ask yourself why one of the other ex-tier 3 BSes aren't better (especially considering the extreme close range nature of blasters). Remember, these are generally meant to be fleet ships, unless you want the Dominix to take over that role (which with the current state of drones will end very poorly).

First, the Maelstrom is obviously a great fleetship (because there is a doctrine with it), yet it have a shield boosting bonus. The proposed Hyperion would follow this same pattern.

Second, regarding PWG, because the Hyperion lose a mid slot, that's one less heavy cap booster and that many PWG freed.

Finaly, with one more low slot, the Hyperion have the possibility to tank even more. Considering active armor buff (AAR) and the new low slot, the tank potential is huge, and LAAR + LAR Hyperion will tank as much as a triple regular rep Hype. Neutralizer hurt more when you have only one cap booster, but neutralizers were already dangerous anyway. Double rep hype run quite some time with one heavy cap booster (more than five minutes).

The other solution, which may have been more popular, woud be to make Hyperion the attack ship, keeping the slot layout and the bonuses, and make the Megathron the combat ship, keeping slot and bonus too. Problem would be the tracking bonus fitting better the attack role while armor+damage bonus fit better the combat role, but people never cared about these role in the first place...

Though the Megathron should keep the drone IMO. That would reduce the damage loss or give even more utility, and further emphasize its gallente flavour (it would be odd no gallente BS but the drone ship get a full flight of heavies).
chris elliot
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#423 - 2013-04-09 00:13:11 UTC
I honestly didn't think it was possible to make the hyperion any worse than it already was.... but you guys did a great job proving me wrong. Sad
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#424 - 2013-04-09 00:14:21 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Second, regarding PWG, because the Hyperion lose a mid slot, that's one less heavy cap booster and that many PWG freed.


That's nice and all, except you can't reasonably power 2 armor reps on only one cap booster.
Olaf4862
Dragoon Industries Limited
#425 - 2013-04-09 00:17:12 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Olaf4862 wrote:
Not to rain on your parade, but just use drones for neuting have get them to buff them so they work better.

I keep thinking that removing the 1 high on the mega and put it in the mid is the way to go. This along with fixes to drones could make the mega extremely potent as a shield or armor tank with a full flight of drones for dps or utility.

Of course this would mean making heavy drones not suck in pvp...


Using 4 Praetor EV-900s, you'd neut 100GJ less cap per 24s (heavy neut cycle time) than the neut. Add that to losing 200+dps to not having heavy drones (or 150+dps for mediums), and that the drones can be killed super easy, and this is a terrible idea. Neut drones are bad.



Kinda why i said they would have to not suck first...
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#426 - 2013-04-09 00:17:28 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

First, the Maelstrom is obviously a great fleetship (because there is a doctrine with it), yet it have a shield boosting bonus. The proposed Hyperion would follow this same pattern.


This has more to do with the disproportionate advantages of projectile turrets and ammo than it does with the hulls.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#427 - 2013-04-09 00:18:00 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:

That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.

How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus?
Losing a heavy drone, while switching to ROF means no change (actually, it's an ever so slight loss in DPS). Losing a Magstab on top of that however, means it's actually a significant loss.

Basically:
7 guns, 5% dmg bonus = 8.75 turrets + 2 mag stabs (+47%) = 12.9
7 guns, 5% RoF = 9.33 turrets + 1 mag stab (+23%) = 11.5

Thanks for confirming, seemed like less DPS after the change but wasn't sure the exact numbers.

Okay, I'm not a propeller head Smile but I don't think the ROF bonus is calculated correctly on that.

I'm really tired and in a hurry, but shouldn't that base = 10.5 turrets?
You had me going for a moment there, as it is way too late (read: early) Smile but no, that is correct: 7/0.75 = 9.33.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#428 - 2013-04-09 00:21:17 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hi Rise,

Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbers…

I’m going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups)

ArrowStock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 total


Change to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidth

Result

ArrowStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total


Megathron saved, Threadnought averted

*bows*


You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#429 - 2013-04-09 00:22:48 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hi Rise,

Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbers…

I’m going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups)

ArrowStock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 total


Change to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidth

Result

ArrowStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total


Megathron saved, Threadnought averted

*bows*


You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship.

It will be a great ship now in both armor fleets and shield fleets, that extra mid did wonders for its versatility.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#430 - 2013-04-09 00:23:39 UTC
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

First, the Maelstrom is obviously a great fleetship (because there is a doctrine with it), yet it have a shield boosting bonus. The proposed Hyperion would follow this same pattern.


This has more to do with the disproportionate advantages of projectile turrets and ammo than it does with the hulls.

Or you are seeing it the wrong way : this has to do with railguns not being good enough ? This Hyperion would be a good as a Rokh in fact. Kind of an abaddon with more range but less resists.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#431 - 2013-04-09 00:23:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.

We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.

Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.
Not sure if this feedback will be seen (being so late in the thread), but if you don't want to throw out the active tanking bonus, give us one that isn't so freaking TERRIBLE. It's absolutely atrocious. There's no comparison to active tanks vs +resist bonused ones. In every case, the +resist ones are going to be better, time over time, without fail.

This problem isn't as present in the shield ships with active bonuses, because the Adaptive Invulns , being active modules, provide a much higher resist profile per-module than a comparably equipped armor ship with EANMs, and thus the effect of not having a +resist bonus is lessened.

If you want to keep active armor tanking ships, you have to stop active armor tanking being so bad as well as make them viable for fleet use. There either needs to be a 1) bonus that affects remote reps received IN ADDITION TO local ones or 2) give the ship an extra low slot--in every case there is active armor tanking to be done--to compensate with more EANMs/active modules required to fill resist holes and increase parity with fleet-oriented ships.

Further, the rep bonus itself is TERRIBLE at 7.5%. Why did the Incursus succeed so much at active armor tanking? Two reasons: 1) the 10% bonus was spot-on and 2) the small rep cycle time is amazing. So, increase the rep bonus to 10% and include a lowered the cycle time/cap usage (of med/large reppers), too.

I don't feel that AARs need to be cap free, as long as the rep bonus includes a cap reduction of some sort. This would make active tanking easier on active-focused ships while still being viable to resist ships by allowing their pilots the option to active tank but with cap-usage tradeoff choices. Also, please don't tote the AAR as having 2.25x rep bonus of Meta 1 reppers, since nobody uses them. It's a pointless comparison of those metrics when the 2.25x number is inflated vs meta- and T2- reppers that people ACTUALLY USE.

TL;DR - make active tanking not terrible by 10% bonus and lowered cycle time/cap use. Active-focused ships need +1 lowslot to compensate for increased resist modules to keep parity with +resist bonus ships. AARs need to be compared to meta and T2 reppers people use.

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Rawstyle
Anomic Entropy
Plucky Adventurers
#432 - 2013-04-09 00:26:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawstyle
Literally the only use for the hyperion was the dual cap injected fit. Removing the mid has killed the 1 single way this ship could be remotely effective.

It appears the majority of these changes once again promote fleet/gang stuff over solo, assuming that lows always = better tank.

While this is often the case in logi assisted fleets/gangs it makes the hyperion entirely useless as a solo boat, without the cap to run 2 reps (the fit its clearly designed for judging from the untouched rep amount bonus) its viability is sevearly reduced.

Un tracking bonused blaster boats must without webs (esp with bs guns) are again almost entirely pointless.

Far from increasing the effectiveness of this ship as a brawler, removing the mid not only makes it worse, but makes it unuseable as a brawler, therefore, unuseable.
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#433 - 2013-04-09 00:27:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).

The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.

I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.

I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.

We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.

Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.

Thanks that you are taking our feedback seriously.

Now with that said, back to the issue at hand.

My biggest issue is with the Hype. The lost of that midslot hurts it in every single way. If you run Incursions, that's loss of tank. If you run missions, that's loss of Cap/Web. If you PvP that's loss of Tracking, Webs, Shields, etc. Everything you want to use this ship for, will be seriously hurt by that loss of a Midslot.

Now there's lots of talk of changing the bonuses.. I don't use the Armor rep bonus, almost no one does. Large Armor Reps use a lot of PG, and just drain cap.. Few people use them on ships that actually have weapons.. That said, I don't use it, so I don't really care if you keep it. It would be nice if it became an Armor HP bonus, or a Optimal/Falloff bonus ( With the change to TC,s Blasters need all the range bonus they can get ), but at the end of the day I'm not concerned with that, I don't think many are.. That loss of a Mid is the issue. We don't NEED another Low.. but we NEED that Mid.

I don't mind the changes to the other ships.. I mean I'm not thrilled by the Mega, but it's not my fav ship to use anyway..

Domi I think will make great use of it's new bonus.. so I'm fine with it..
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#434 - 2013-04-09 00:27:23 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hi Rise,

Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbers…

I’m going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups)

ArrowStock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 total


Change to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidth

Result

ArrowStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total


Megathron saved, Threadnought averted

*bows*


You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship.

It will be a great ship now in both armor fleets and shield fleets, that extra mid did wonders for its versatility.


I'll post numbers when I get home, but the reason the current mega is a **** fleet ship is twofold. First, it has low CPU, making hardeners a no go, and limiting fitting options. Second, it has about 2/3rds the tank of a real fleet battleship. LOWERING its armor tank to make an even weaker shield tank into an option basically decimates its viability in a fleet setting. It can't line dps, and it can't compete with nagas and the like for sniper fleets.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#435 - 2013-04-09 00:29:33 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hi Rise,

Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbers…

I’m going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups)

ArrowStock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 total


Change to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidth

Result

ArrowStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total


Megathron saved, Threadnought averted

*bows*


You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship.

A mid it doesn't need while still retaining much of the tank and DPS it had before isn't a loss.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#436 - 2013-04-09 00:30:34 UTC
On a personal note, I am saddened to see that the Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps while not being compensated in any way. The solution to this is obvious: give the Dominix a +1 drone controlled per level.

This would make it better than the Armageddon as a drone boat (keeping with the Gallente flavor), while keeping it useful as a mission ship, pvp boat, fleet ship, etc.

As a further note on keeping the ship useful (and not terribly overpowered with the increased drones (10 total), change the +10% drone damage and hitpoints per level to +10% drone hitpoints and tracking (or optimal) per level.

Both of these changes would keep the Dominix unique and strong in both fleet pvp and pve situations while not being terribly overpowered.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#437 - 2013-04-09 00:31:16 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hi Rise,

Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbers…

I’m going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups)

ArrowStock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 total


Change to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidth

Result

ArrowStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total


Megathron saved, Threadnought averted

*bows*


You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship.

A mid it doesn't need while still retaining much of the tank and DPS it had before isn't a loss.


It is when the ship's biggest flaw on live is its lack of respectable tank.
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#438 - 2013-04-09 00:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tuxedo Catfish
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

First, the Maelstrom is obviously a great fleetship (because there is a doctrine with it), yet it have a shield boosting bonus. The proposed Hyperion would follow this same pattern.


This has more to do with the disproportionate advantages of projectile turrets and ammo than it does with the hulls.

Or you are seeing it the wrong way : this has to do with railguns not being good enough ? This Hyperion would be a good as a Rokh in fact. Kind of an abaddon with more range but less resists.


No, I think I have it right. Neither beam lasers nor railguns have any advantages nearly as significant as artillery's alpha and ability to deal any type of damage, and cruise missiles are in no position to be compared to either. Beam lasers, along with Railguns on the Rokh, still see some use because their situation is opposite of the Maelstrom -- mediocre guns on great hulls.

Gallente battleships on the other hand simply do not have bonuses appropriate for fleet combat. The Megathron comes close, but while tracking is a good bonus it simply isn't in the same tier as optimal or passive resists, let alone competitive with a ship that has two out of three of those bonuses.
Ashaton
Veiled Industries.
#439 - 2013-04-09 00:35:43 UTC
Sorry can someone explain this to me...

If the Dominix is supposed to be a drone sniper now, doesn't that mean it's basically going to have to kite? But its main source of damage will now have to come from sentries, which don't move... so how is it going to be able to kite?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#440 - 2013-04-09 00:39:30 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.