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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Fix the unfun tourne meta

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Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#1 - 2013-04-07 23:18:06 UTC
Ban more than 1 ship cap-transferring.

You banned more than 1 logi ship long ago, and more than 1 ASB so they couldn't be circle-jerk cap fed once out of charges.

Being forced to bring low dps, poor damage projection, slow neuting ships backed by terrible ECM mechanics or OP damps isn't fun, they aren't going to work against most simply-average setups, but are utterly required to break these cap-fed circle-jerks.

You can't seriously want a repeat of a team that turtled until they only had to win 1/3 matches before they dared to try something else.

And **** ecm, I had an ECCM proteus jammed by Vexors and Myrms ffs. With eccm implants also not allowed, I'm wondering what even happened to the proposed ECM change that these stupid mandatory racial ECCM skills were to tide us over for.
Oxente
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-04-08 00:08:51 UTC
Kiss the ring.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#3 - 2013-04-08 00:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Lick mine. And get back to the topic of balance in the tourne setting.

Seriously http://i.imgur.com/g1m7UDG.jpg
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2013-04-08 00:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Lick mine. And get back to the topic of balance in the tourne setting.

Seriously http://i.imgur.com/g1m7UDG.jpg


I'm not sure what the problem is, you countered it, it sounds like you're mad, you want cap transfering, and ECM and ECCM removed and all kinds of other things.

Way to lose like a brat. I guess the rest of your team had a good fight and for you this very fun tournament was somehow traumatic.

Maybe next month bro, maybe next month.


EDIT: And I don't get whats go you so mad at that screen shot? Our logi pilot is better at multi tasking, nerf multi tasking?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
JEFFRAIDER
THIGH GUYS
#5 - 2013-04-08 00:53:27 UTC
ARE YOU MAD *****
Brian Levine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-04-08 00:59:53 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r42aBi_7yg4

(Drops Mic)

GOOD FIGHTS TO YOUR BROS WHO FLEW. They actually didnt cry on the forums after they lose. It was good tourney and you just look really foolish and bratty with ur posting.
Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#7 - 2013-04-08 01:03:49 UTC
Have to say, seeing that Proteus fit is damned impressive. Jaw on the floor. I thought nanoing a dual TD curse around a hairball fight took micro, but that's child's play next to that Proteus micro. Good stuff guys.

As for remote cap xfer, I actually did bring up the notion of limiting it somehow. The cap chain circle jerk is extremely strong, and while counterable has a very limited spectrum of counters, all of which do very poorly against more popular setups. It's something to consider to be sure, but I'm very torn on it and I think I'm probably a lone voice on the SCL staff talking about it.

TL;DR, don't get your hopes up, but know that at least one of us sees it as a VERY powerful with limited counterability and something worth looking at a bit harder.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#8 - 2013-04-08 01:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
My issue isn't with PL, they found the OP option and went with it every time they needed to. My issue is the nature of that option and whether it's any fun to fly, fight against if you aren't certain to face it, or watch.
Consider why only 1 ship is allowed to RR. Why only 1 ASB was allowed.

Edit: Glad at least 1 staff member's willing to go on the record that there's a potential problem.
And that proteus isn't hard to fly, it's just a logi ship that has no positioning to do, no cares about transversal or range as long as teammates do the flying of orbiting 500m. What's insane is how many reps it can consider running thanks to having god-knows how many remote cap trans on it, which it then feeds back into Damnation linked, subsystem bonused reps. There's only so much dps a tourne team can bring due to pilot numbers & points. Ban and jam Gal and you remove the highest dps threats, especially the 90% webs.
The lame neuts counter dies to everything else ever fielded in the tourne environment. thus it either boringly turtle tanks 99% of setups, or makes the opponents look like idiots every time the gamble in needing the 1-in-100 neut setup and are unlucky. There are a few too many ships capable of doing the huge raw tank numbers, bans can't remove enough.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-04-08 02:15:16 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
My issue isn't with PL, they found the OP option and went with it every time they needed to. .



You don't get it.

It was more like we put out the Golem tinker, and you showed zero ability to deal with the threat.


We altered it a bit and threw a variation of it at you and you couldn't deal with that either, sentry drones being key, and to top it all off they dealt with frigates ok.

Your inability to deal with it meant that we arrogantly assumed that you couldn't deal with it a 3rd time but you did, but was that a fluke or a thing, would you steal our set up and run it or did you have something else?

So you saw the sleip team since that was a mulligan match, to give us an idea of what else you might have up your sleeve (we debated throwing it directly at you again but we figured we'd give you a breather first) and on the final match we saw the ban list and left you an obvious hole to fill with gallente ships and loaded up on gallent jammers.

You own reactions dictated what we'd bring. You didn't warrant any of the other set ups because statistically you fared poorly against the tinker set up, we were likely able to field that and save most of our trick bag for a possible CCP tournament in 2 months.

You guys fought hard as hell, the matches we won were closer than you'll ever know (like the Sin match) but we walked you into where we wanted you to be, and we beat you with the first hard set frame work we showed you., the tinker.

Incidentally if you think flying those things are easy you should give it a shot.


So we can show you all the really good counters to it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Admiral Goberius
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2013-04-08 10:32:54 UTC
people thinking turtle setups are cheap should have put in the effort to come up with their own v0v

the only good reason to limit turtle setups somehow is the fact a turtle mirror might come down to whoever gets off a single lucky jam and blap a frig before time runs out

maybe make it so if no ship dies within the first 4 minutes, the ship with reps fitted is destroyed for both teams, could also help breaking stalemates between two kiting setups

this might encourage ASB or AAR teams to just hide for 4 minutes waiting for logis to be deleted, then charge in - still might do for interesting meta; much better than limiting cap xfers might as well force everyone to fly rush/kite variations then
Gallinae
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-04-08 13:19:49 UTC
nomad plz.
leetcheese
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-04-08 13:30:57 UTC
BAN EVERYTHING I DONT LIKE BAWWWW
Noisrevbus
#13 - 2013-04-08 13:35:38 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Ban more than 1 ship cap-transferring.

And **** ecm, I had an ECCM proteus jammed by Vexors and Myrms ffs. With eccm implants also not allowed, I'm wondering what even happened to the proposed ECM change that these stupid mandatory racial ECCM skills were to tide us over for.


I'd like to congratulate you for managing to whine about both offensive and defensive projected effects in the same post.

"They had remotes, but since we're too 'honourable' to counter it with ECM... both should be banned".
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#14 - 2013-04-08 13:36:34 UTC
can we also get a ban on other teams banning ships I want to field :(
Reza Najafi
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#15 - 2013-04-08 13:42:01 UTC
Moar tears.
Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#16 - 2013-04-08 17:11:54 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Daneel Trevize wrote:
My issue isn't with PL, they found the OP option and went with it every time they needed to. .



You don't get it.

It was more like we put out the Golem tinker, and you showed zero ability to deal with the threat.


We altered it a bit and threw a variation of it at you and you couldn't deal with that either, sentry drones being key, and to top it all off they dealt with frigates ok.

Your inability to deal with it meant that we arrogantly assumed that you couldn't deal with it a 3rd time but you did, but was that a fluke or a thing, would you steal our set up and run it or did you have something else?

So you saw the sleip team since that was a mulligan match, to give us an idea of what else you might have up your sleeve (we debated throwing it directly at you again but we figured we'd give you a breather first) and on the final match we saw the ban list and left you an obvious hole to fill with gallente ships and loaded up on gallent jammers.

You own reactions dictated what we'd bring. You didn't warrant any of the other set ups because statistically you fared poorly against the tinker set up, we were likely able to field that and save most of our trick bag for a possible CCP tournament in 2 months.

You guys fought hard as hell, the matches we won were closer than you'll ever know (like the Sin match) but we walked you into where we wanted you to be, and we beat you with the first hard set frame work we showed you., the tinker.

Incidentally if you think flying those things are easy you should give it a shot.


So we can show you all the really good counters to it.


Unfortunate for it to come in the form of a turd-chucking thread, but that's awesome insight into your team's strategies and really appreciated. I enjoyed reading it and I'm sure many who watched will too.

Gobbins hits the nail on the concern I have. It's not JUST the *vsTurtle matchups that I'm concerned about. It's the Turtle vs Turtle that could be utterly disastrous. As it was we had at match or two day 1 that I seem to recall ended with one or two frigate kills being the difference, and it's hard to make that compelling viewing. At the end of the day, this is for the viewers as much as the competitors, so we want to ensure that we make it entertaining to watch as well as fly in.

We have plenty of time before the next one and a lot of things to look at and discuss. I'll float this thread (since both sides make good cases) and see what others think.
Admiral Goberius
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2013-04-08 17:45:32 UTC
The no-logi AT (AT6) was one of the best. Maybe you could try having one no-logi SCL and see what its like.
Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#18 - 2013-04-08 18:00:35 UTC
Admiral Goberius wrote:
The no-logi AT (AT6) was one of the best. Maybe you could try having one no-logi SCL and see what its like.


It is the beauty of this format--we run often enough that we can try radical concepts without lasting repercussions. Certainly something to think about.

The other issue we have to keep in mind is creating more work for Fozzie. The tool he uses to check fits/implants is based on the NEO tool, and hasn't been updated since, so the filters apply NEO rules. He has to manually override anything that violates those rules AFAIK, and he'll have to manually scan fits for modules that we ban that weren't banned in the NEO. As it is you can see on our broadcast UI, the points values are wrong because of this. We're working on a solution at least for the visuals on the UI, but fixing the tool is out of our (and Fozzie's) hands. Ergo we have to consider what sort of workload any rule changes might create.

In any case, no logi sounds interesting. We may have to accompany that with some other changes to keep the meta interesting, but it's something I'll bring up.

Feel free to post ideas guys--we have a few days of regrouping as a staff before we sit down to discuss rule changes and the like, and we ARE active here and watch these threads, so your ideas and thoughts will get into our discussions if they're good ones.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#19 - 2013-04-08 18:13:07 UTC
Forgive me but I won't be super prompt at responding to this or giving that feedback today, kinda burnt out right now.
Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#20 - 2013-04-08 18:51:27 UTC
No worries. I started another thread for it anyway. Take your time.
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