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Ships & Modules

 
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New ships and modules - what do you think of them ?

Author
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2011-10-28 16:36:32 UTC
Magosian hit the nail on the head. If your guns are going to have the shortest range, you have to have the fastest ships. Period, end of sentence. Nerfing agility is fine and dandy, as long as you're the fastest in a straight line. This helps kill any chance of kiting rail brutixes/myrms running around. However, if you don't make them the fastest, they'll still get **** on by just about everything else that a) is faster and b) has better ranged guns.

Granted I don't think I went through the whole thing thoroughly, but I didn't see anything about changing the speed penalty on armor rigs, didn't see a small damage buff on blasters themselves, didn't see buffed speed numbers that approach anything close to what is necessary.

If CCP wants to make blaster ships viable, they have to give up this stupid fluff about Minmatar being the fastest, and make Gallente ships the fastest, armor plates or no. Give em an extra agility penalty if you want, that will enable Minmatar to stay viable in skirmish pvp, but as it is now Gallente ships are not the best at anything. It's either give blasters range like ACs/pulses and have everyone be playing RvB with different skins, or we make close range ships actually be able to get into a fight on their terms.

All that said, the changes are in the right direction. Hybrids needed more tracking, the ships need more speed. Also the Oneiros changes look awesome tbh. I don't know what you people are bitching about, having a ship that can actually fit a buffer + 4 large reppers and doesn't run out of cap because someone else got jammed is awesome.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#82 - 2011-10-28 16:42:24 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Carmen Martino wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Not convinced on the blaster changes - #1 : Since when has fitting been the primary issue?.

As far as #2 goes, the 20% tracking buff, to put it into context you have to recall the 400% change that occured with QR in 2008 and the way the tracking formula works up close. Once you do that, you see it really doesn't change much at all...

*sad face*



Have you ever flown ANYTHING that uses hybrids? My guess is no.
My friend, I've flown nothing but Hybrid ships (and by that read: mostly blaster boats) since 2004 - there were indeed fitting issues back '04-06 ish but those were resolved (e.g. Megathron powergrid boost, CPU reduction on blasters e.t.c).

Fitting is not the core issue for blasters today.

Take a look at this:

5x meta neutrons on a thorax with max skills leaves you with 105ish pg, t2 leave you with 70ish pg

7x meta neutrons on a brutix leaves you with 150ish pg, t2 leaves you with 100ish pg

the megathron stands alone with its blaster brothers as it has 5000pg after meta neutrons, it can fit something worth a damn

the Hyperior is a tighter fit then mega, only having 3200ish pg

the domi has minus 1000pg with a rack of meta neutrons, forget t2


Blasters usually come with MWDs, reppers, cap boosters and plates, all requiring pg that only the mega can somewhat spare if its going to go with good dps.

Reducing fitting requirements works with the hallmark of Gallente close range ships: high DPS with heavy tanks.

But you are assuming blaster fit = neutrons, when really there's no need to cram neutrons onto every single fit. At most you gain ~6% over Ions, 10% over electrons and indeed some Ion fits do equal or more DPS by virture of the more relaxed fitting requirements.

I stand by my point that fitting is not the key issue for blasters and therefore the proposed 'fix' is not convincing. Also, I'm not Alex, I'm Gabriel and always have been Lol

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-10-28 16:47:39 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Also, I'm not Alex, I'm Gabriel and always have been Lol


Yea sorry about that. I glanced at the last name at the time and I swear I saw "Karrde," so I thought perhaps you were an Alex alt. My apologies :(
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#84 - 2011-10-28 17:40:14 UTC
Quote:
Specifically speaking to the changes proposed in the OP's link, I get a strong impression CCP still does not understand the underlying weaknesses of hybrids. They are:

-Blasters need to be practical. They either need improved ranges which will allow them to compete with autos and "scorch'd" pulses or they need to be on the fastest ships. It's that simple.

-Railguns, and to a certain degree blasters, need something which fits a niche. Most of the questions every pilot/gang/fleet asks themselves when fitting a ship is, how is using weapon-type X going to give me an advantage on the field? In most cases (shown above), the answer is amost always projectiles or lasers. Hybrids need to be the answer to at least a couple of these questions. Presently, they do not.


I agree completely. Hybrid simply have no role - there is no situation where you say "we need blasters/rails", and CCP's changes do not address this in the slightest. This is because the roles that hybrids had have been usurped by ACs and lasers. This cannot be fixed by boosting hybrids by any sensible amount, because the problem isn't really hybrids, it's ACs and lasers. Hybrids are balanced because the have defined roles - the others are overpowered because they are too good in too many situations.

In general, the utility of a weapon as fleet size increases is in proportion to its range. In a blasterboat, you can't afford to sped all day MWDing about, when you can just sit still and fire Scorch. This straight away means that blasters need to be better than ACs in solo combat, as ACs are better as gang size increases. But, of course, they're not, because if you're soloing, you want mobility and the ability to apply damage from outside web range - hence you want Minmatar hulls and ACs. If you choose blasters, you have a slow ship with no ability to apply DPS from outside web range, and the requirement to go into web range yourself to apply your DPS. Tackling yourself in every fight, with no ability to GTFO when Teh Blob arrives, when a Minmatar AC option is available, is basically a complicated form of Russian Roulette - brave and exciting, but foolish.

Even despite this, if blasters really had a damage advantage close up, they would have a minor niche. But thanks to slot layouts, the greater viability of shield gank fits on AC boats and selectable damage, they don't. ACs are supposed to be used in falloff - so why do they have such high damage and tracking close up? I've run numbers on the new t3 BCs and, ignoring tracking, a shield gank Tornado with Hail will kill a Void Talos even if the fight starts at blaster optimal. It has less raw DPS, sure, but the damage-type selectability and ease of fitting LSEs means that Talos runs out of EHP first. If those are the final stats, then it's just stupid.

The only proper fix will involve one race with fast ships and short-ranged weapons, and the other with slower ships and high falloff. The fast ships will be able to use their speed to avoid unfavourable fights and choose favourable ones, but they'll have to go inside web range to apply their DPS. The slower ships will not be able to get tackle or avoid tackle nearly as easily, but will have better DPS application at range in compensation.

You'll know when blasters and ACs are balanced because you'll face a tough decision about whether to fly a Vaga or Deimos. Call it the Deimos test - if the Deimos is not balanced with the Vagabond, then blasterboats and AC-boats are not balanced.

As for rails, well, they're pointless in a world that instant probing and on-grid warping to eliminate the ranged niche. But even if you fix the "warp-to-enemy" problem, then Tachyons on optimal-boosted hulls have still usurped rail's long-ranged role.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2011-10-28 18:24:13 UTC
Gypsio, it's utter nonsense to say that ACs are "meant to be used in falloff;" if that were the case, they'd be strictly inferior to both lasers and missiles, both of which give them a thorough spanking at kiting ranges. They're supposed to be flexible - weaker than blasters but stronger than others at point blank, and weaker than lasers/missiles but better than blasters at range. The only one of those that doesn't hold at the moment is "weaker than blasters at point blank", and that doesn't point to a problem with ACs, it shows that blasters are not doing enough effective damage at the ranges where they should be the undisputed champions. This isn't just an issue with ACs - for example, even in scram range, a geddon can tank and gank about as effectively as a mega (while a tempest, whether armor or shield tanked, can't keep up with either).

Also, your comment about having to make a hard choice between a vaga and a deimos is silly, although the sentiment behind it is sound. It's perfectly possible for two ships to both be good but in very different ways; you'd never have a hard time choosing between a guardian and a scimitar, for example, even though they both belong to the same class of ships and are both good at what they do. Same goes for pest versus abaddon or zealot versus vaga.
Tac Mannall
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2011-10-29 07:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tac Mannall
Personally i think the balances listed are going to be quite powerful for Blaster boats.

The the change to the Inertia Modifier and the speed increase both are paired to play to the blaster boat's role. The whole point of being in a blaster boat is to get into blaster range, and that means running right at your target more often than not. On the surface only the speed upgrade really works for this but it's once you get into scram range that the Inertial Modifier really comes into play. Diving right towards the enemy you don't really need to move from side to side too much but once it hits scram and your MWD shuts down you'll start to slow down but with the increased Inertia the drop in speed happens much slower and that means you can coast right into blaster range quicker and easier.

The drop in fitting requirements and the cap usage drop also benefits the Blaster boat. The fittings probably won't affect the guns too much, but what it will do is leave more fitting resources to fit more of a strong tank. You're throwing yourself literally into the face of the enemy's guns, you need a strong tank to handle the damage as you're closing. Plus the massive drop of cap usage means that an Active tank setup is more of a valid option. It could be a racial trait, Amarr have buffers, Gallente have active tanks.

Also, I have to say, I love the possibility of the new Destroyers. I finally can use my Catalyst without being laughed at. :p

[edit:spelling]
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#87 - 2011-10-31 15:08:47 UTC
Looks like I was indeed right:

CCP Tallest wrote:
Tristan North wrote:
Please specify in that blog if it is an Agility Nerf or Agility Buff.
Most players are confused about it.


The agility change is an agility buff. The ships will be more agile.



AGILITY AND SPEED BUFF WOOOOOOT
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#88 - 2011-10-31 17:59:50 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Looks like I was indeed right:

CCP Tallest wrote:
Tristan North wrote:
Please specify in that blog if it is an Agility Nerf or Agility Buff.
Most players are confused about it.


The agility change is an agility buff. The ships will be more agile.



AGILITY AND SPEED BUFF WOOOOOOT



Yes very interesting indeed but don't forget this, witch is the most important factor killing blaster ships:

you accelerate faster, you have overall better speed when MWD'n ! -right !

Now must I remeber you the 500% sign penalty when using mwd making your thorax get almost the double sign radius of an orca and makes you get in tha face 110% dmg knowing untill you get in your ridiculous blaster range engagement, everyone and his cat is blowing your face?
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#89 - 2011-10-31 19:19:58 UTC
Do or die - the gallente way.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#90 - 2011-10-31 19:55:29 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Do or die - the gallente way.


Diemost, that's why Lol
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#91 - 2011-10-31 20:18:50 UTC
You should check prometheus's video - he absolutely wreck people's **** in a diemost.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#92 - 2011-10-31 23:47:56 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
You should check prometheus's video - he absolutely wreck people's **** in a diemost.



I've seen a few ones but I can't just look at without being critic, duno if those were from that guy but most I saw were older enough, maybe before several nerfs, then all others are very specific situations and some blind could figure out most piloting mistakes from targets. Also diemost works fine with logis and friends webing scraming.

Stil, I rather use vaga's or cynabals every day.
Acorn FB
THE GOLDEN KNIGHTS
Shadow Ultimatum
#93 - 2011-11-01 00:20:37 UTC
I think CCP may have finally learned the hard way to make a change part of the way to where you expect the issue to actually lay rather than overbuff. A second round buffs can be done easily a round of nerfs are more problematic. The buffs to both lasers and projectiles overshot the goal, so caution may be a good idea.

I do think that with buffed hybrids people wil use them more and some tactics may appear/reappear now that they are closer to their competiors. The problem they are just to weak in raw terms to make anything work, give them a buff and you never know.

I also think the Gall BC tier 3 is going to get a lot of use, big webs tons of firepower - .
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#94 - 2011-11-01 06:23:16 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
You should check prometheus's video - he absolutely wreck people's **** in a diemost.



I've seen a few ones but I can't just look at without being critic, duno if those were from that guy but most I saw were older enough, maybe before several nerfs, then all others are very specific situations and some blind could figure out most piloting mistakes from targets. Also diemost works fine with logis and friends webing scraming.

Stil, I rather use vaga's or cynabals every day.


I was thinking of the ones where he solo's enemy gangs in his diemos, takes out vaga's and cynabels by the dozen.