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Why risk versus reward doesn't matter
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Ace Uoweme

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 517

#201 - 2013-04-06 06:23:52 UTC

Frying Doom wrote:

As they can do nothing until a Law has been broken.

It just depends on what potential crimes. Folks can lawyer all the time over what can or can't be done, but with cops you'd never know until they arrive.

The scenerios I posted about could've came out very deadly very quickly...the cops arrived just like in some movie on those 19. Literally swung around the curve and stopping within a foot of one guy and running out of the cars. With how they decked out their patrol cars, the sound of the arrival was scary enough. It was that in itself that probably dispersed them (they looked bewildered). The cop addressing the woman, he wasn't playing when he ordered her to shut up or be arrested.

One thing is for sure where I live law and order is truly law and order. And we like it that way and pay for it...33 cops per 1000 residents. Why less than 10min response times.

So when I see CONCORD in EvE it's pretty weak, slow and ineffective.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

RubyPorto

RubysRhymes

Likes received: 5,663

#202 - 2013-04-06 07:16:28 UTC

Captain Tardbar wrote:

That said, law enforcement itself believes that its job is to prevent crime, not just prosecute it.....

And the Supreme Court has said that they are not responsible for preventing crimes, and thus cannot be held liable for failing to do so.

Whatever they say is irrelevant. They cannot prevent specific crimes. They can argue that they prevent crimes by discouraging criminals until they're blue in the face, but that's a different thing.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto

RubysRhymes

Likes received: 5,663

#203 - 2013-04-06 07:21:25 UTC | Edited by: RubyPorto

Ace Uoweme wrote:

Cops wouldn't have known it was any crime until they arrived. None were cited, so by the law itself no crime occurred. They did get a scare of their life though.

You're confusing discretion with impotence. Police officers don't give everybody who speeds a speeding ticket. Doesn't mean speeding is legal.

Quote:

Cops intimidate all the time, as it helps to PREVENT crime. My dad held a transpasser into the air until cops arrived before. Poor boy must've dropped his load, when dad berated him as dad looks/acts every bit the DI he was.

Trespassing is a crime. Had your dad held some random innocent civilian on the sidewalk at gunpoint, guess who would have gone to jail. Because intimidating someone who has not committed a crime is, itself, a crime.

Ace Uoweme wrote:

One thing is for sure where I live law and order is truly law and order. And we like it that way and pay for it...33 cops per 1000 residents. Why less than 10min response times.

So when I see CONCORD in EvE it's pretty weak, slow and ineffective.

Police: 10 minute Response time, call it 80% conviction rate => Fast and Effective
CONCORD: 30 second Response time, 100% conviction and punishment rate => Slow and Ineffective.

Good logic there, buddy.

Calathorn Virpio

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 409

#204 - 2013-04-06 07:51:15 UTC

Andski wrote:

imagine a space-themed amusement park and you have several rides

that's what eve is basically going towards

and which corporation could most change that by deciding to war deck the galaxy?

Roll

rich people complaining about being bored

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend

Murk Paradox

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 760

#205 - 2013-04-06 13:03:34 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:

Murk Paradox wrote:

Weren't you the one who brought up the Police to solidify your stance on Concord "protecting"?

Because someone claimed that "Protection" was not the service provided by CONCORD.

RL Police provide Protection, not Prevention.
CONCORD provides Protection, not Prevention.

See?

In broad strokes, comparing CONCORD to a Police force works. Once you start into details like "well that means CONCORD should patrol like real police" or "why doesn't CONCORD attack the catalyst yellowboxing a miner in a belt," the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.

No I don't, because in a different post you showed how the comparison was awful and didn't work.

CONCORD punishes, not protects. Deterrent is not a protection because the ability is still there.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Lord Zim

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,451

#206 - 2013-04-06 13:05:49 UTC | Edited by: Lord Zim

Murk Paradox wrote:

CONCORD punishes, not protects. Deterrent is not a protection because the ability is still there.

Does the police stop me from shooting someone in the face? No. Do they try to make sure I get punished afterwards? Yes.

Does concord stop me from shooting someone in the face? No. Do they make sure I get punished afterwards? Yes. Hell, sometimes they even stop me from finishing the job. So they're more effective than RL police. vOv

And protection through deterrence is still protection.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Murk Paradox

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 760

#207 - 2013-04-06 13:07:46 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:

Ace Uoweme wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:

the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.

Wrong.

By the time CONCORD gets to who they're suppose to "serve and protect", they're dead and the assailant is just waiting to die. He accomplished what he set off to do, and wasting nothing in a throw away ship.

Pointless "protection".

Works the same way with the protection that Police provide. They show up after the crime has been committed, unless they're already on scene (BTW, CONCORD also reacts faster when it's already on the scene).

Protection is still the service being provided.

Also, what Crime in EVE is not punished by CONCORD?

What crime is prevented by Concord?

Murk Paradox

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 760

#208 - 2013-04-06 13:08:54 UTC

Andski wrote:

Ace Uoweme wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:

the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.

is that any different than real life

Yes it is.


Lord Zim Gallente Federation Likes received: 2,451	#209 - 2013-04-06 13:09:45 UTC Murk Paradox wrote: What crime is prevented by Concord? Remove concord from hisec for a week, and you'll soon find out. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. RIP Vile Rat

Murk Paradox

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 760

#210 - 2013-04-06 13:18:08 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:

Ace Uoweme wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:

the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.

Intent. But that's besides the point. CONCORD does punish. What crime does Concord prevent?


Lord Zim Gallente Federation Likes received: 2,451	#211 - 2013-04-06 13:19:17 UTC Murk Paradox wrote: Intent. But that's besides the point. CONCORD does punish. What crime does Concord prevent? Lord Zim wrote: Remove concord from hisec for a week, and you'll soon find out. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. RIP Vile Rat


Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic Likes received: 517	#212 - 2013-04-06 13:22:51 UTC Lord Zim wrote: Murk Paradox wrote: What crime is prevented by Concord? Remove concord from hisec for a week, and you'll soon find out. Not much would change, because players would be doing what they already are doing. So much for prevention. _"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Murk Paradox

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 760

#213 - 2013-04-06 13:24:08 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:

Ace Uoweme wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:

Works the same way with the protection that Police provide.

No.

Had a drunk neighbor who wouldn't leave my yard. Called the cops, they arrived within 10mins. Cop asked the dude to get out of the car. He refused. Cop pulled out his Glock, pointed it behind his ear, and asked him to get out of the car. The dude carefully did.

Last summer some neighbors and whoever started shouting and carrying out a scene before my yard. Shouting; throwing their jackets on the street; and it getting nastier by the minute. Called the cops, 10mins later, 3 patrol cars literally screeched to a halt before them. Told them to stop, went to the neighbor (still screaming) and told her point blank to shut up or she'll be arrested. 19 people were out there...19...and damn if their antics was going to hurt my mom. The scene was dispersed, but I'm sure the cops would've used whatever means at their disposal to stop the situation before it truly got out of hand.

CONCORD in EvE, arrives 3 days late, is like Barney Fife (complete with one trusty bullet in his pocket) and could handle but one player at a time.

No, it's not policing at all.

Your drunk neighbor was committing a crime (trespassing, Public Intox, and maybe DUI) long before the Police showed up.

Your neighbors were committing a crime (Disturbing the Peace) long before the Police showed up.

In EVE, CONCORD starts rolling as soon as a crime is committed, which is actually a lot better than RL police who only start rolling as soon as one is Reported.

What's confusing you is that there are no crimes in EVE that aren't (for lack of a better term) point-source. Your examples are both examples of ongoing crime lasting quite a long time. EVE doesn't really have those.

Name a crime in EVE that CONCORD does not respond to.

You mine in a belt. You see a squad of gankers land on grid. You might even recognize those names. You know what they are going to do, you've seen these outlaws before. You've witnessed their crimes in the past.

You leave because you know what's going to happen, you dock up. You have no way to "report" it.

But you already said comparing to cops was a bad decision.

Lord Zim

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,451

#214 - 2013-04-06 13:24:22 UTC

Ace Uoweme wrote:

Lord Zim wrote:

Murk Paradox wrote:

What crime is prevented by Concord?

Remove concord from hisec for a week, and you'll soon find out.

Not much would change, because players would be doing what they already are doing.

So much for prevention.

Oh, so you think hisec wouldn't turn into a total bloodbath until people stopped undocking, because griefers would kill everyone?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lord Zim

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,451

#215 - 2013-04-06 13:26:08 UTC

Murk Paradox wrote:

And faction police takes care of making sure people with "bad security standings" have a difficult time in empire.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Andski

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 11,585

#216 - 2013-04-06 13:29:08 UTC

Murk Paradox wrote:

What crime is prevented by Concord?

You can suicide gank somebody, but once you do, you can't suicide gank another person for 15 minutes because you'll get concorded. You also can't turn a grid into a bloodbath because anyone who engages while CONCORD sticks around is going to get instagibbed. I'm also not going to use Talos gangs to kill every mission runner in sight because unless they're shiny fit, I'm throwing a substantial amount of isk away each time.

So yes, CONCORD does prevent quite a bit of "crime" directly and indirectly HTH

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Murk Paradox

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 760

#217 - 2013-04-06 13:38:33 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:

Captain Tardbar wrote:

See there is a quite a big difference between real world police and Concord. It would be silly to try to make the two similiar.

I never said anything about porting RL Laws into EVE. Nor did I say that RL Police were the same as CONCORD. In fact, I said that RL Police and CONCORD were only similar in broad strokes and if simplified, and that any comparison would fall apart in the specifics.

All I said was that CONCORD provides Protection as its service, rather than Prevention.
Just like RL Police provide Protection as its service, rather than prevention. (Arresting someone for conspiracy means that the crime of Conspiracy was committed, so the crime charged was, in fact, not prevented.) And that not providing Prevention as their service does not negate the fact that they provide protection.

RL police do in fact provide service as prevention.

Just do some driving down some roads and highways.

In the Illinois/Indiana area it is very prevalent (they use sleepers) to control speeders.

Also, you'll see police post up near busy stop sign intersections.

You also said AFTER a crime... prevention is before and during a crime. That's how protection works. Punishment is AFTER a crime.

Look, we all know what you're trying to say, you even tried backpedaling. Just admit your comparison was bad and move on, stop trying to hang on it.

Concord does not protect, they punish. They avenge! And only in the case of murder (or attempted murder). Avenging is not protecting. It's what you do after you FAILED to protect.


Lord Zim Gallente Federation Likes received: 2,451	#218 - 2013-04-06 13:40:33 UTC \| Edited by: Lord Zim Murk Paradox wrote: Concord does not protect, they punish. They protect by providing deterrence, and if that fails, they punish. Just like RL police does, except RL police doesn't definitely punish, they try to punish. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. RIP Vile Rat

Ace Uoweme

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 517

#219 - 2013-04-06 13:44:50 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:

Had your dad held some random innocent civilian on the sidewalk at gunpoint, guess who would have gone to jail. Because intimidating someone who has not committed a crime is, itself, a crime.

Nope.

If there was an explosion at a plant, and people are nearby and not moving out, you bet the cops will do what they have to to clear the zone. Perfectly innocent people even, but the zone is dangerous and room is needed for emergency personel.

He doesn't need a warrant. He doesn't even need suspicion. To maintain law and order he can and will pull his weapon even on innocent folks to get them to obey. It's not the time or place to be a troll or worse.

Ace Uoweme wrote:

It's perfect logic, since this is a game and things can be programmed to be an instant response. In reality cops have to actually travel --real time-- to the scene. A <10min response is pretty darn quick in reality. Especially if the substation isn't across the street. There's none of those issues in a game, at all.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Murk Paradox

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 760

#220 - 2013-04-06 13:46:01 UTC

Lord Zim wrote:

Murk Paradox wrote:

CONCORD punishes, not protects. Deterrent is not a protection because the ability is still there.

They would if they were there. Are you saying Concord should just have patrols and be stationed at every poinjt of interest? Because the secodn you fired you're first shot you'd get blown up.

But that's not protection is it? It's punishment. It's avenging the transgressor. Since you shot that person in the face, and he died, hence why you got punished, they didn't really protect now did they?

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