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Why risk versus reward doesn't matter
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#181 - 2013-04-06 02:07:49 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Weren't you the one who brought up the Police to solidify your stance on Concord "protecting"?


Because someone claimed that "Protection" was not the service provided by CONCORD.

RL Police provide Protection, not Prevention.
CONCORD provides Protection, not Prevention.

See?


In broad strokes, comparing CONCORD to a Police force works. Once you start into details like "well that means CONCORD should patrol like real police" or "why doesn't CONCORD attack the catalyst yellowboxing a miner in a belt," the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2013-04-06 03:01:57 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.


Wrong.

By the time CONCORD gets to who they're suppose to "serve and protect", they're dead and the assailant is just waiting to die. He accomplished what he set off to do, and wasting nothing in a throw away ship.

Pointless "protection".

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#183 - 2013-04-06 03:07:22 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.


Wrong.

By the time CONCORD gets to who they're suppose to "serve and protect", they're dead and the assailant is just waiting to die. He accomplished what he set off to do, and wasting nothing in a throw away ship.

Pointless "protection".


is that any different than real life

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#184 - 2013-04-06 03:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.


Wrong.

By the time CONCORD gets to who they're suppose to "serve and protect", they're dead and the assailant is just waiting to die. He accomplished what he set off to do, and wasting nothing in a throw away ship.

Pointless "protection".


Works the same way with the protection that Police provide. They show up after the crime has been committed, unless they're already on scene (BTW, CONCORD also reacts faster when it's already on the scene).

Protection is still the service being provided.


Also, what Crime in EVE is not punished by CONCORD?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2013-04-06 03:25:49 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Works the same way with the protection that Police provide.


No.

Had a drunk neighbor who wouldn't leave my yard. Called the cops, they arrived within 10mins. Cop asked the dude to get out of the car. He refused. Cop pulled out his Glock, pointed it behind his ear, and asked him to get out of the car. The dude carefully did.

Last summer some neighbors and whoever started shouting and carrying out a scene before my yard. Shouting; throwing their jackets on the street; and it getting nastier by the minute. Called the cops, 10mins later, 3 patrol cars literally screeched to a halt before them. Told them to stop, went to the neighbor (still screaming) and told her point blank to shut up or she'll be arrested. 19 people were out there...19...and damn if their antics was going to hurt my mom. The scene was dispersed, but I'm sure the cops would've used whatever means at their disposal to stop the situation before it truly got out of hand.

CONCORD in EvE, arrives 3 days late, is like Barney Fife (complete with one trusty bullet in his pocket) and could handle but one player at a time.

No, it's not policing at all.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#186 - 2013-04-06 03:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Works the same way with the protection that Police provide.


No.

Had a drunk neighbor who wouldn't leave my yard. Called the cops, they arrived within 10mins. Cop asked the dude to get out of the car. He refused. Cop pulled out his Glock, pointed it behind his ear, and asked him to get out of the car. The dude carefully did.

Last summer some neighbors and whoever started shouting and carrying out a scene before my yard. Shouting; throwing their jackets on the street; and it getting nastier by the minute. Called the cops, 10mins later, 3 patrol cars literally screeched to a halt before them. Told them to stop, went to the neighbor (still screaming) and told her point blank to shut up or she'll be arrested. 19 people were out there...19...and damn if their antics was going to hurt my mom. The scene was dispersed, but I'm sure the cops would've used whatever means at their disposal to stop the situation before it truly got out of hand.

CONCORD in EvE, arrives 3 days late, is like Barney Fife (complete with one trusty bullet in his pocket) and could handle but one player at a time.

No, it's not policing at all.


Your drunk neighbor was committing a crime (trespassing, Public Intox, and maybe DUI) long before the Police showed up.

Your neighbors were committing a crime (Disturbing the Peace) long before the Police showed up.

In EVE, CONCORD starts rolling as soon as a crime is committed, which is actually a lot better than RL police who only start rolling as soon as one is Reported.

What's confusing you is that there are no crimes in EVE that aren't (for lack of a better term) point-source. Your examples are both examples of ongoing crime lasting quite a long time. EVE doesn't really have those.

Name a crime in EVE that CONCORD does not respond to.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2013-04-06 04:00:41 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
What's confusing you is that there are no crimes in EVE that aren't (for lack of a better term) point-source. Your examples are both examples of ongoing crime lasting quite a long time. EVE doesn't really have those.


All of them didn't face any charges.

And what is confusing you is -- the examples shows you what cops actually do day-to-day to keep peace.

When folks talk about policing, it's cops who arrive on time and remedy the problem (either by getting the offender away; arrests; or if needed using deadly force), in a timely fashion.

I never had to wait longer than 10mins for a cop to be at my door. That's RL times. Ingame it should be instant.

Devs know where the draw the line. They see the results when it's not done. Newbies are protected until they leveled/skilled enough to fight on their own.

Otherwise, police need to be actual police.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#188 - 2013-04-06 04:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Weren't you the one who brought up the Police to solidify your stance on Concord "protecting"?


Because someone claimed that "Protection" was not the service provided by CONCORD.

RL Police provide Protection, not Prevention.
CONCORD provides Protection, not Prevention.

See?


In broad strokes, comparing CONCORD to a Police force works. Once you start into details like "well that means CONCORD should patrol like real police" or "why doesn't CONCORD attack the catalyst yellowboxing a miner in a belt," the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly.


You are sorely mistaken.

Real world police do protection and prevention.

Not only will they arrest you for commiting a crime, but also will arrest you if they suspect you of planning to commit a crime.

I could list all the cases where the FBI has arrested tons of people on conspiracy to commit crimes they themelves facilitated the criminals to actually plan to commit. (Like where the FBI tricked the persons into believing they were going to sell explosives to them and then arrested the person on conspiracy to commit terrorism before the act ever happened even if there were no explosives to begin with).

As in.... It would be like concord blowing up ships because you locked someone. Sure you might have just been scanning them, but they needed to punish you just to be sure you were conspiring to commit a henious act.

So no. Concord isn't like real life police in that respect.

Personally, I would prefer that our police authorities not arrest people for theoretical crime, but the truth is that they do and that is called crime prevention.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2013-04-06 04:46:29 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Not only will they arrest you for commiting a crime, but also will arrest you if they suspect you of planning to commit a crime.


There you go.

Probable cause.

+1

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#190 - 2013-04-06 04:49:06 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
What's confusing you is that there are no crimes in EVE that aren't (for lack of a better term) point-source. Your examples are both examples of ongoing crime lasting quite a long time. EVE doesn't really have those.


All of them didn't face any charges.

And what is confusing you is -- the examples shows you what cops actually do day-to-day to keep peace.

When folks talk about policing, it's cops who arrive on time and remedy the problem (either by getting the offender away; arrests; or if needed using deadly force), in a timely fashion.

I never had to wait longer than 10mins for a cop to be at my door. That's RL times. Ingame it should be instant.

Devs know where the draw the line. They see the results when it's not done. Newbies are protected until they leveled/skilled enough to fight on their own.

Otherwise, police need to be actual police.


Doesn't matter if they faced charges. The Police officer only had the authority to do what he did because they were committing a crime. A Police officer who tries to intimidate someone who is not committing a crime is, himself, committing a crime.

The Police Officer arrived only AFTER the crime was initiated. That is the point of comparison here. Whatever he did once there is irrelevant.

Police Show up after a Crime is committed and do something.
CONCORD Shows up after a Crime is committed and do something.

Would you prefer that CONCORD delivered a stern talking-to to gankers instead of blowing up their ship?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#191 - 2013-04-06 04:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Not only will they arrest you for commiting a crime, but also will arrest you if they suspect you of planning to commit a crime.

I could list all the cases where the FBI has arrested tons of people on conspiracy to commit crimes they themelves facilitated the criminals to actually plan to commit. (Like where the FBI tricked the persons into believing they were going to sell explosives to them and then arrested the person on conspiracy to commit terrorism before the act ever happened even if there were no explosives to begin with).

As in.... It would be like concord blowing up ships because you locked someone. Sure you might have just been scanning them, but they needed to punish you just to be sure you were conspiring to commit a henious act.

So no. Concord isn't like real life police in that respect.

Personally, I would prefer that our police authorities not arrest people for theoretical crime, but the truth is that they do and that is called crime prevention.


Conspiracy to Commit is, itself a crime. 18 USC S 2332b (a)(2)

"(2) Treatment of threats, attempts and conspiracies.— Whoever threatens to commit an offense under paragraph (1), or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be punished under subsection (c)."

Locking someone is not a crime in EVE.

Once again, you're confusing RL laws with laws in EVE.


Incidentally, Conspiracy is a lot more involved than "might have been planning."

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-04-06 05:07:01 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Conspiracy to Commit is, itself a crime. 18 USC S 2332b (a)(2)

"(2) Treatment of threats, attempts and conspiracies.— Whoever threatens to commit an offense under paragraph (1), or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be punished under subsection (c)."

Locking someone is not a crime in EVE.

Once again, you're confusing RL laws with laws in EVE.


Incidentally, Conspiracy is a lot more involved than "might have been planning."


No where did I say that locking on to some one was against "EVE law" nor do I suggest they be changed to suit such a need.

I am just saying that if real world laws applied to "EVE laws" that locking on to someone would be a crime because that would be a sign that you are conspiring to commit an offense. It would be like pointing a gun at someone or some instrument that could be a gun.

Sure you could say, "But officer I was just pointing a gun at them! I wasn't going to shoot!" (Like lets say you went into a bank and pointed a toy gun at the teller.)

So no. "EVE law" has nothing to do with real world law in that regard because you can basically point your guns at someone all day and nothing happens. I don't think this should change either.

As to the conspiracy issues.... It is a gray area where thinking about committing a crime begings and conspriracy begins.

Everyone thinks about committing crimes on occasion but it doesn't mean they will do it.

But even doing a google search on the means on how to commit the crime is grounds enough to convict you in some cases.

It would be like if concord could court order google to hand over ip addresses and to automatically blow up any anyones ship who visisted Mittani's guide on how to gank miners.

See there is a quite a big difference between real world police and Concord. It would be silly to try to make the two similiar.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#193 - 2013-04-06 05:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Captain Tardbar wrote:
See there is a quite a big difference between real world police and Concord. It would be silly to try to make the two similiar.


I never said anything about porting RL Laws into EVE. Nor did I say that RL Police were the same as CONCORD. In fact, I said that RL Police and CONCORD were only similar in broad strokes and if simplified, and that any comparison would fall apart in the specifics.


All I said was that CONCORD provides Protection as its service, rather than Prevention.
Just like RL Police provide Protection as its service, rather than prevention. (Arresting someone for conspiracy means that the crime of Conspiracy was committed, so the crime charged was, in fact, not prevented.) And that not providing Prevention as their service does not negate the fact that they provide protection.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#194 - 2013-04-06 05:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
RubyPorto wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
See there is a quite a big difference between real world police and Concord. It would be silly to try to make the two similiar.


I never said anything about porting RL Laws into EVE. Nor did I say that RL Police were the same as CONCORD. In fact, I said that RL Police and CONCORD were only similar in broad strokes and if simplified, and that any comparison would fall apart in the specifics.


All I said was that CONCORD provides Protection as its service, rather than Prevention.
Just like RL Police provide Protection as its service, rather than prevention. (Arresting someone for conspiracy means that the crime of Conspiracy was committed, so the crime charged was, in fact, not prevented.) And that not providing Prevention as their service does not negate the fact that they provide protection.


That said, law enforcement itself believes that its job is to prevent crime, not just prosecute it.....

For example, the FBI wants to aggregate social media in order to prevent crime:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/minority-report-is-real-fbi-wants-to-use-social-networks-to-prevent-future-crime/

I did a google search on "FBI" and "crime prevention" and got tons of examples..... Also this gem though very politically biased:

http://harmlesserrorblog.blogspot.com/2012/10/FBIentrapsmantopreventfakecrime.html

So if you called the FBI today and asked them "Do you prevent crime?" I'm sure the person who answered the phone would say yes.

With EVE there is just punishment. There is nothing wrong with that. Unless you really want people at CCP investigating people for planning to commit EVE crimes.


[edit]

All this talk about the FBI and me posting those links probaly has me on their watch list now.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Frying Doom
#195 - 2013-04-06 05:56:41 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


So if you called the FBI today and asked them "Do you prevent crime?" I'm sure the person who answered the phone would say yes.

If you called them and asked them if they had a zero tolerance for employee drug taking, they would say yes.

Doesn't make it true though.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#196 - 2013-04-06 06:02:43 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:


So if you called the FBI today and asked them "Do you prevent crime?" I'm sure the person who answered the phone would say yes.

If you called them and asked them if they had a zero tolerance for employee drug taking, they would say yes.

Doesn't make it true though.


Well by that I mean that its official policy. I'm sure you could get a disgruntled employee saying "No we don't really prevent crime." but then if it was made public, his supervisor would probaly have a word with him.

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Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2013-04-06 06:07:27 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Because it has no relationship to how things really work. You can always make the most money in areas where there is the most stability. And when you think about it that makes sense. here is what doesn't.

The price of stability is a higher "price of admission". I could mine gold in the Congo or in Alaska. In the Congo there are less barriers to entry and lower overall costs, but significantly more risk. It is the first part that is missing in EvE hi sec, barriers to entry and higher overall costs.

Nothing is free in a "civilized" nation or space. Where are the mining permits and the subsequent outlaws that mine without a permit? Where are the taxes, beyond corporate taxes, for living in protected space? Docking permits, trade license, etc.

Beyond making the hi sec experience realistic it could add flavor to the game. Loose practices in some factions including corrupt officials or tight laws down to a specific permit required for each type of ore. All available at a local space station.

Risk versus reward is bozo. Lo sec is about freedom, hi sec is about sacrificing those freedoms for protection.



I agree, we need revenue streams with which to pay concord!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Frying Doom
#198 - 2013-04-06 06:07:40 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:


So if you called the FBI today and asked them "Do you prevent crime?" I'm sure the person who answered the phone would say yes.

If you called them and asked them if they had a zero tolerance for employee drug taking, they would say yes.

Doesn't make it true though.


Well by that I mean that its official policy. I'm sure you could get a disgruntled employee saying "No we don't really prevent crime." but then if it was made public, his supervisor would probaly have a word with him.

Yes but for the most part it is either an excuse for invasion of privacy, or wishful thinking.

Lets face it if they were actually serious then there would be real punishments for crimes (See middle east).

A law enforcement agency, like most government agencies has those cute fluffy bunny statements for PR purposes.

As they can do nothing until a Law has been broken.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2013-04-06 06:08:04 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Doesn't matter if they faced charges. The Police officer only had the authority to do what he did because they were committing a crime. A Police officer who tries to intimidate someone who is not committing a crime is, himself, committing a crime.


Cops wouldn't have known it was any crime until they arrived. None were cited, so by the law itself no crime occurred. They did get a scare of their life though.

Cops intimidate all the time, as it helps to PREVENT crime. My dad held a transpasser into the air until cops arrived before. Poor boy must've dropped his load, when dad berated him as dad looks/acts every bit the DI he was. He never came back again, because around here transpass at 3am, I hope the guy likes Swiss cheese (my neighbor actually shot trespassers with rock salt, and even getting a shot at one guy's rear with it). Between that and the Vietnam vet at one corner who'd dress down punks, and the AR-15 nut (his house is even lit like a prison), even a foreign invasion would have a problem.

It's the fear of the real consequences that keeps crime at bay, especially personal consequences.

RubyPorto wrote:
Would you prefer that CONCORD delivered a stern talking-to to gankers instead of blowing up their ship?


If it was like my father would give (seen Full Metal Jacket? Dad was worse), I think it'll prevent so much crime CONCORD would only show up for the real baddies. Lol

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#200 - 2013-04-06 06:13:14 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
As they can do nothing until a Law has been broken.



Ah. But the trick of the system is to have so many laws on the books is that its only a matter of time before they find an existing one to arrest you with.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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