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Farmatar: Or why fw is totally broken

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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#221 - 2013-04-05 14:58:24 UTC
You need to read that which you reply, preferably before replying my dear Smile
Cearain wrote:
Why should they do it wrong?...

Because it is CCP and they tend to use trial and error when it comes to anything remotely related to human behaviour modifications. That paragraph was the introduction to the rest by the way.
Cearain wrote:
CCP did already fix npcs

Yes I know, they went with my idea after all .. the plex specific sub set so that they could be changed at will as needs arose without breaking stuff all over the place.
But they launched an infuriatingly watered down rat (singular!) which when killed within an eon prevents all subsequent spawns = stabbed/cloaked frigs/dessies with minimal dps able to do just about all plexes. Quite obviously not enough tank on the things or there is too much time .. as written in the text you replied to.
Cearain wrote:
Whoever runs more missions gains sov the fastest? Not really a fan. The current system is enough of a carebear race I don't think we need to sink deeper.

With missions only to hostile space, poison pills and size appropriate rats/objectives .. again, written in the text you replied to.
Cearain wrote:
Very few care about 90% of the systems. Systems sit vulnerable for ages. A general indicator that says "yep korasen is still vulnerable" is not going to change much. It will still be the fwaction war wabbits that decide sov in 90% of systems.

That is the way it is now, with interface telling you (with delay) what is contested and by how much. I propose adding data on how many plexes in a given system is in rotation/respawning, that is which systems are being actively plexed.
No one I know would ever go for or indeed support free information about ships and numbers involved, and it is quite frankly not needed as long as people are urged to hunt off the beaten paths .. think of it as a slender plume of smoke rising from the forest, you know someone has a fire going but not much else without having a look see .. again, explained in the text you replied to.

I haven't given up on you Cearain, just trying to help you get you out of the groove you seem to be stuck in.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#222 - 2013-04-05 16:16:17 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
You need to read that which you reply, preferably before replying my dear Smile
Cearain wrote:
Why should they do it wrong?...

Because it is CCP and they tend to use trial and error when it comes to anything remotely related to human behaviour modifications. That paragraph was the introduction to the rest by the way.
Cearain wrote:
CCP did already fix npcs

Yes I know, they went with my idea after all .. the plex specific sub set so that they could be changed at will as needs arose without breaking stuff all over the place.
But they launched an infuriatingly watered down rat (singular!) which when killed within an eon prevents all subsequent spawns = stabbed/cloaked frigs/dessies with minimal dps able to do just about all plexes. Quite obviously not enough tank on the things or there is too much time .. as written in the text you replied to.
Cearain wrote:
Whoever runs more missions gains sov the fastest? Not really a fan. The current system is enough of a carebear race I don't think we need to sink deeper.

With missions only to hostile space, poison pills and size appropriate rats/objectives .. again, written in the text you replied to.
Cearain wrote:
Very few care about 90% of the systems. Systems sit vulnerable for ages. A general indicator that says "yep korasen is still vulnerable" is not going to change much. It will still be the fwaction war wabbits that decide sov in 90% of systems.

That is the way it is now, with interface telling you (with delay) what is contested and by how much. I propose adding data on how many plexes in a given system is in rotation/respawning, that is which systems are being actively plexed.
No one I know would ever go for or indeed support free information about ships and numbers involved, and it is quite frankly not needed as long as people are urged to hunt off the beaten paths .. think of it as a slender plume of smoke rising from the forest, you know someone has a fire going but not much else without having a look see .. again, explained in the text you replied to.

I haven't given up on you Cearain, just trying to help you get you out of the groove you seem to be stuck in.



Well veshta I think we just need to agree to disagree. You want lots of npc involvement in the sov war. You want them boosted and (poison pill or not) having mission rats bombard you while you try to pvp is just the same sort of bad idea ccp finally did away with. Changing the npcs is the best thing ccp ever did for fw sov. Its a way waste of time to mess with it further. Forcing bigger ships to fight npcs will not mean more pvp. It will just mean bigger pve ships running plexes. We know this from the past when the rats where stronger and spawned more often. Yet Ank captured over 111 plexes in under a week without a single pvp kill.

As was said earlier plexes are the new top belt. Thanks to the nerf of the rats plexes are now the best place to pvp in all of eve. Lets not undo that. And looking for solutions to farming in npcs is counterintuitive. Wormholes and incursions all have harder npcs but that is still farming. And the harder npcs just make it less likely that those players will be able to pvp.

As far as your complaint that the militia would give "free information" to others in the militia, that is a bit silly. But whatever, how about we pay 5 mill per month to our own militia so that they will tell us when we are being attacked? That way it won't be "free."

Lots of people supported the notification idea - considering it was a fw idea. Its notoriously hard to get support for specific fw proposals. In fact few other specific fw proposal that had as much support. We still see notification proposals popping up for example with respect to bunker busts.

As to what specific information is given that can be tweaked. We should at least know where our military complexes are currently being attacked. Beyond that:
-size of the plex
-Numbers in the plex
-numbers from each militia or neutrals in plex
-names of people in the plex
-what ship class is in the plex
- what ship type is in the plex
-what militia is in the plex
-how much time is left on the timer
-how we find out whether from a map or by a seperate channel for that purpose whatever
etc etc is all information that can be debated and tweaked. But just letting us know where our military complexes are under attack, so we can defend them in pvp, is an obvious first step.

My groove is the same groove I have been in for years. I want fw sov to be a pvp activity not a pve one. The way to do that hasn't changed.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#223 - 2013-04-05 17:03:55 UTC
Cearain wrote:
In fact few other specific fw proposal that had as much support.
There has been universal support for timer rollbacks.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
#224 - 2013-04-05 17:23:18 UTC
Cearain wrote:


We still see notification proposals popping up for example with respect to bunker busts.



i only ever see them "Pop Up" in your posts


Cearain wrote:

-Numbers in the plex
-numbers from each militia or neutrals in plex
-names of people in the plex
-what ship class is in the plex
- what ship type is in the plex
-what militia is in the plex
-how much time is left on the timer


You have got to be kidding me... I serously mean this cerain why dont u ask ccp to magically teleport you into an occupied plex in the perfect counter ship everytime you log in .......... You say your not lazy i beg to differ with that shi.... u posted right there

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#225 - 2013-04-05 17:54:58 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


We still see notification proposals popping up for example with respect to bunker busts.



i only ever see them "Pop Up" in your posts


Cearain wrote:

-Numbers in the plex
-numbers from each militia or neutrals in plex
-names of people in the plex
-what ship class is in the plex
- what ship type is in the plex
-what militia is in the plex
-how much time is left on the timer


You have got to be kidding me... I serously mean this cerain why dont u ask ccp to magically teleport you into an occupied plex in the perfect counter ship everytime you log in .......... You say your not lazy i beg to differ with that shi.... u posted right there



If you openly attack a military complex do you not think that you will be reported??

What sort of bizarro world is it where you attack a military complex and no one from your own military tells anyone else?

I know you like to defend fwaction war wabbits for all the content they bring but this is going a bit far don't you think?

And again I love how some people on these forums are so out of touch with reality, that they say someone is lazy because they don't spend more time playing computer games.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#226 - 2013-04-05 18:16:35 UTC
Seriously?

Cearain wrote:

-names of people in the plex
-what ship class is in the plex


Why not make it an instanced arena that you can use your summoning stone to magically teleport to? Then you really don't have to anything at all but log in and hit F1.

nom nom
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
#227 - 2013-04-05 18:18:43 UTC
Cearain wrote:
=


If you openly attack a military complex do you not think that you will be reported??

What sort of bizarro world is it where you attack a military complex and no one from your own military tells anyone else?



It does get reported .... in our intel channels omfg we actually play the game for how its meant to be played... its a cat and mouse game not something that spoon feeds you kills....so yes lazy

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
#228 - 2013-04-05 18:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Only way id ever see it not having some sort of pve element to the sov mechanic would be for onlining of sbus and tcus like null sec imo

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#229 - 2013-04-05 18:47:50 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Notifications will dramatically increase the efficiency of pvpers who want to participate in the sov game - and coorrespondingly decrease the efficiency of the rabbits.


my efficiency killing farmers is pretty good and i do not need any notification system for it, only thing is that there is no point to kill farmers or even to try to hold systems, so you do not see me hunting farmers.

Problems in FW mechanics are somewhere else and your ideas do not solve those.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#230 - 2013-04-05 18:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
This is XG`s fault. Conceding the thin edge of the npc intel wedge set off a new terrifying wave of bad ideas.

The guy is terrible, i saw him presumably out looking for pvp. Plexes in the system all had single targets in them, I watched for where he wss gonna go play. 30 seconds after he arrived, he was gone again. Not eve enough time to dscan all the plexes. Dude couldnt find pvp in rvb.

Maybe he needs his own kiddy server with notifications and and an instant action button for the adhd,
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#231 - 2013-04-05 23:08:17 UTC
Wow I suggest the wereabouts of fwaction war wabbits will be disclosed by the military complex they are capturing, and the gallente are very upset.

Lets summarize their concerns:

-Fear it will now be too easy to kill off the wabbits,
- Fear that pvp will be too easy to find,
-That I am bad at eve, based on observing me for 30 seconds warping out of a system.
-and, of course, accusing me of being lazy because I don't spend more time playing a computer game.

Nice round of posts guys.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
#232 - 2013-04-05 23:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
capturing, and the gallente are very upset.

Lets summarize their concerns:

-Fear it will now be too easy to kill off the wabbits,
- Fear that pvp will be too easy to find,
-That I am bad at eve, based on observing me for 30 seconds warping out of a system.
-and, of course, accusing me of being lazy because I don't spend more time playing a computer game.





-Fear it will now be too easy to kill off the wabbits, <---------- dont care about farmers there not worth time/ effort if people want pvp they know where to go

- Fear that pvp will be too easy to find,<---------- PVP is easy to find everyone else apart from you seems to find it

-That I am bad at eve, based on observing me for 30 seconds warping out of a system. <--------- cant comment on that

-and, of course, accusing me of being lazy because I don't spend more time playing a computer game. <---------- no ur not lazy cos u dont spend more time playing it, your lazy for how you want to play it having things gifted to you for no effort

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#233 - 2013-04-05 23:40:42 UTC
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#234 - 2013-04-06 00:01:33 UTC
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#235 - 2013-04-06 00:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
capturing, and the gallente are very upset.

Lets summarize their concerns:

-Fear it will now be too easy to kill off the wabbits,
- Fear that pvp will be too easy to find,
-That I am bad at eve, based on observing me for 30 seconds warping out of a system.
-and, of course, accusing me of being lazy because I don't spend more time playing a computer game.





-Fear it will now be too easy to kill off the wabbits, <---------- dont care about farmers there not worth time/ effort if people want pvp they know where to go


You don't care about fw sov in 90% of systems then.
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

- Fear that pvp will be too easy to find,<---------- PVP is easy to find everyone else apart from you seems to find it


No I am not the only one. Plenty of people indicate that eve takes too long to find pvp action for the amount of time spent. Look in this thread and other current threads in this forum. Its currently better than it was before inferno but its not always so action packed, that it couldn't possibly improve.

ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

-That I am bad at eve, based on observing me for 30 seconds warping out of a system. <--------- cant comment on that

-and, of course, accusing me of being lazy because I don't spend more time playing a computer game. <---------- no ur not lazy cos u dont spend more time playing it, your lazy for how you want to play it having things gifted to you for no effort


I want the game to be challenging not time consuming or tedious. Having sov determined by constant pvp is challenging. Having sov determined by alts orbiting buttons and running and hiding from pvp is just tedious and boring.

I also don't think rabbit plexing takes more "effort" than having to win plexes through pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
#236 - 2013-04-06 00:23:40 UTC
I would like to keep this at the top, by stating that Crosi is right it is XG's fault

Blasters for life

https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#237 - 2013-04-06 00:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
I think were playing 2 different games. last time i played, i undocked, found a caldari gang of 7 talwars, an arbitrator and an atron in my home system. So i undocked a cane and baited them into a fight. I had 3 talwar an arbitrator and atron kills within 5 minutes of logging on. Bit later got into a BC small gang brawl with squids. Though i was logi and didnt whore on many kills :(

Not played for a couple of days, but logged on today, squids in plexes in my home system, just leroyed a maulus into them. Coincidently, SPCA were leroying a couple dessies into them as well, so got on several kills within 5 minutes of logging on. Went 1 jump, found an enyo and hb, leroyed into them, hb bailed enyo died. 2 jumps later tacked a neutral moa in a medium. Was gonna take him by myself but some rainbow dash guys pissed on my parade, i tackled the rainbow noman with my maulus forcing them to bring in 8 other guys and logi to support him. My backup arrived but just as i was going back in for a point they bailed.

So in about 50 minutes i had been involved in 8 kills. This is pretty typical. If i dont go out scouting, nothing happens. If i do, pvp keeps happens very frequently.

If you want pvp without doing the groundwork, WoW ---->
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#238 - 2013-04-06 01:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
We have now heard from Moe Larry Curly and Shemp.

But what is interesting is how the argument, against revealing where the farmers are, keeps shifting.

At first the gang of four has been arguing that notifications will effect nothing. It won't make sov war involve any more of a pvp mechanic than it is now.

But now the arguments are doing an about face.
Curly now says it will make pvp too easy to find.
Larry now says we already have so much pvp no one could possibly want more.
Moe just apologizes.
And Shemp admits he really doesn't mind that 90% of the warzone sov is determined by rabbits.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#239 - 2013-04-06 02:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
We have now heard from Moe Larry Curly and Shemp.

But what is interesting is how the argument against revealing where the farmers are keeps shifting.

At first the gang of four has been arguing that notifications will effect nothing. It won't make sov war involve any more of a pvp mechanic than it is now.

But now the arguments are doing an about face.
Curly now says it will make pvp too easy to find.
Larry now says we already have so much pvp no one could possibly want more.
Moe just apologizes.
And Shemp admits he really doesn't mind that 90% of the warzone sov is determined by rabbits.


Ah, a post from the school of "i said it so its true".

Curly and larry are being misconstrued in your post, moe was joking and very few people really care about the state of the greater warzone outside of strategic systems and accept their swinging status as a practical way to enable all militias to exist and at some point, in the upswing, be profitable. More isk = more pvp.

Im mostly interested in which of the handful of possible events will start the pendulum swinging away from gallente in the gallente and caldari warzone. If this doesnt happen in the next 3-4 weeks, THEN i will accept something is broken, but using indicators that are exactly opposite to yours. As in, no gallente system is more than 60% contested, and their contested rates are falling. This indicates that caldari farmers are having little or no impact on the overall state of any system, even backwaters. Your wet dream.

This will lead to a stagnant warzone which is the antitheses of the sov-light principal of FW.

You want sov to be the pinnacle, its not, and no one outside some brain damaged roleplayers want it to be.

Nullsec = Sov > PvP
FW = PvP > Sov
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
#240 - 2013-04-06 07:08:21 UTC
Cearain wrote:
We have now heard from Moe Larry Curly and Shemp.

But what is interesting is how the argument, against revealing where the farmers are, keeps shifting.

At first the gang of four has been arguing that notifications will effect nothing. It won't make sov war involve any more of a pvp mechanic than it is now.

But now the arguments are doing an about face.
Curly now says it will make pvp too easy to find.
Larry now says we already have so much pvp no one could possibly want more.
Moe just apologizes.
And Shemp admits he really doesn't mind that 90% of the warzone sov is determined by rabbits.


Aren't you no longer in FW?

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven.