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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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SP Trade in

First post
Author
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#61 - 2013-04-05 09:49:41 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

...
Your analogy is falacious. The correct analogy, following my argument, is you shouldn't be able to return a ship after you buy it, and guess what, you can't!!
When you buy a ship in EvE, you can attempt to resell it, sometimes for a profit, sometimes for a loss... but you don't get to undo your purchase because you no longer want the ship. To even provide a relevant example, many supercarrier & titan pilots didn't get to "undo" their purchases when their supercaps were nerfed... while they could sell those assets, it was often at a significant loss!

So your argument is that SP reallocation doesn't suffer from chance/skil in making profit or losses on them? That can be address by putting maximum on the amount of SP that can be reallocated or a percentage (80, flexible?) of the old SP to be placed into new skills. For changing an Indus alt to PvP alt the SP loss is now almost 100%.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

...
Imagine I rat in a carrier... and one day I make a mistake that gets it destroyed... Should I be able to undo the consequence of my action and have it reimburesed... Is it right the mistake I made is permanent? Or how about if I accept a contract that I didn't read carefully enough, and it resulted in me losing a billion isk... Can I have that undone, just once a year... so my mistake isn't permanent? Guess what, in EvE... your losses are perment... your decesions are irreversable... Some things get a "are you sure you want to do this" warning... but when you CHOOSE to do it, you must deal with the consequences of your choice. The same applies to skillpoints!!!!

From all the resources/assets(ISK, PLEX, ships, SP, attributes) in the game SP is the one for which your decisions are the most definitive and offer the least degrees of freedom to change. The idea is to change that.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

...
Remap counters are annual... I just explained that even annual SP redistribution would be abused... I have ~100m SP on my mains, and I would never unspec Perc/Will. I'd train at max rate all year... and once every year I'd simply redistribute my SP to instantly train new useful skills (like MJD, Target breaker Spectrum, Sensor Comp skills, etc)... this would not be a good thing!

Is people optimize their game play by using mechanics is and using multi step approaches to get more, bad? Then I must be very bad exchanging LPs for modules I sell on the market to pay for my purchases of faction ships while maximizing ISK/LP.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

...
Likewise-- see 2&3... Right before the summer patch, I could retrain to insure I pickup all the new BC & Dessie skills... Right after the last patch, I could retrain to produce BO BS's with perfect skills to profit from their buff... Last Summer I could have insta-trained to use and/or make t2 Siege/Triage modules. etc, etc... Big changes to the game happen 1-2 times a year... and this mechanic allows me to take full advantage of the changes with little to no foresight.

I'm not a vet like you, but sofar expansions are announce well in advanced, so there is foresight. And some people are taking full advantage of those changes. Eg I'm training BC 5/Command Ship 1 at the moment, even though I can not fly Command ships before the expansion I will be able to do so immediately after the expansion.
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#62 - 2013-04-05 10:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nagnor
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Nagnor wrote:

5.) It destroys the character bazaar. Total SP a character has is not nearly as important as how they have that SP distributed. You essentially remove this aspect from the bazaar.

  • And the character bazaar is a good thing? It is a P2W, which is frowned upon by EVE players in general.
  • It doesn't give your control over your own character (name, appearance, ..). It allows scammers, awoxer and other wrong-doers to dodge consequence by getiting rid off bad reputation, (corp) history through buying/ replacing characters.


    There is a big difference between P2W and the character bazaar (and PLEX for that matter). You should also do a forum search to understand the subtle difference between pay to win, and the options available to EvE players, as it's been discussed many times. To summarize:
    Pay to win implies you get in game advantages for out of game money... That does NOT HAPPEN in EvE.

    This is subtle, so you need to think about it before responding:
    From anyone elses perspective... you buying plex does NOT enable a character to earn SP faster. you buying plex does NOT give you an isk advantage. Why? Because the isk you gained via selling plex was already in game... the character you bazaared had already accrued SP. Those assets already existed in game, completely independent of whether or not you ascertained them by exchanging game time for it.

    I understand, from your perspective... you spend RL money and gain a character with lots of SP, and a bunch of isk... so it seems like pay2win... but no new advantages were created via your purchase... Plex, and the character bazaar are actually very ingenious, as it allows people to exchange future game time for efforts already achieved in game. It is specifically NOT pay 2 win, because NO NEW ADVANTAGES are created via PLEX!!!

    Don't fool yourself that by the introduction of PLEX as step in between and CCP having a bit of control over the flow it is not P2W.
    You as a player are getting significant benefits for RL money. You talk about the lack of new advantages as reason for it not being P2W, where actually there are advantages namely in the form of omission in disadvantages.

    What kind of characters are being sold on the bazar? People no longer having the need/desire of an alt with the characteristics/SP that alt has and want to free up an alt slot on their account. An option to them would be to biomass it (total destruction of SP).
    Other characters that are sold on the bazar have actually been skilled just for the purpose of being sold. There are (vet) players that do so as a business. I don't know what the current b ISK/ m SP rate is and whether it is profitable enough to sustain PLEX and account by itself. Anyway on accounts which already have their (primary) character skilled completely (for its purpose), using the training queue on alts in order to prevent loss of SP gain are supplemental income. As an activity can be well combined with bot mining. Of course it would be insulting to them to cal them the Gold/SP farmer of EVE ;)

    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    Nagnor wrote:

    6.) Even if you allow it only once in a character's life time, we all know you'll be whining and bitching again in another year how you've changed your course through EvE, and want to move SP around again...

  • How is SP reallocation significantly different than attributes remapping? SP realloc effects SP training in the past, where remap training in the future.
  • Or do you propose to remove remap as well?


    ...

    They didn't used to allow annual remaps, and they changed it because your attribute mapping significantly effect your training rate. In general, new players don't have the knowledge and experience to truly know what they wish to do long term in EvE, not to mention their goals are very much subject to change as they and EvE evolve through various emergent gameplay.

    Exactly!! So why allowing (limited) changes to allocations of points from Charisma & Memory to Perception & Willpower as you would with a remap, but not from Trade to Gunnery as would be the case with SP reallocation?
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #63 - 2013-04-05 17:13:07 UTC
    Nagnor wrote:

    ...
    Your analogy is falacious. The correct analogy, following my argument, is you shouldn't be able to return a ship after you buy it, and guess what, you can't!!
    When you buy a ship in EvE, you can attempt to resell it, sometimes for a profit, sometimes for a loss... but you don't get to undo your purchase because you no longer want the ship. To even provide a relevant example, many supercarrier & titan pilots didn't get to "undo" their purchases when their supercaps were nerfed... while they could sell those assets, it was often at a significant loss!

  • So your argument is that SP reallocation doesn't suffer from chance/skil in making profit or losses on them? That can be address by putting maximum on the amount of SP that can be reallocated or a percentage (80, flexible?) of the old SP to be placed into new skills. For changing an Indus alt to PvP alt the SP loss is now almost 100%.

  • I would think you'd need both of these addendums to balance SP redistribution:

    a.) 1530 SP/HR is the slowest learning rate... 2250 is the fastest learning rate (without implants)... The ratio of 1500/2250 = 0.667, so I'd recommend you only retain ~65% (or less) of the SP you redistribute. This eliminates the benefits of redistributing skillpoints from optimally trained to inoptimally trained skills.

    b.) Even with the new changes to the skill tree, it takes only takes 3.5-4m SP to instantly train a new toon into a new race with Frig, Dessie, Cruiser, BC, and BS IV, as well as all racial turret skills at IV, and most relevant support skills at IV. Frankly, insta-training an entire races lineup is too much, So I'd limit the max amount of SP to redistribute in a single remap to say... 2m SP.

    Realize, points A & B are where I'd compromise if I thought SP redistribution should be implemented. I dont though... I think you should keep the SP you've trained, and simply train up the new skills you want... 2m SP is about 1-1.5 months of training, and there are a lot of viable stepping stones to utilize while training up. Additionally, you ALREADY BENEFITED from your old SP... and you can continue to benefit from them if you desire... There is no need for SP redistribution...

    Nagnor wrote:

    ...
    Imagine I rat in a carrier... and one day I make a mistake that gets it destroyed... Should I be able to undo the consequence of my action and have it reimburesed... Is it right the mistake I made is permanent? Or how about if I accept a contract that I didn't read carefully enough, and it resulted in me losing a billion isk... Can I have that undone, just once a year... so my mistake isn't permanent? Guess what, in EvE... your losses are perment... your decesions are irreversable... Some things get a "are you sure you want to do this" warning... but when you CHOOSE to do it, you must deal with the consequences of your choice. The same applies to skillpoints!!!!

  • From all the resources/assets(ISK, PLEX, ships, SP, attributes) in the game SP is the one for which your decisions are the most definitive and offer the least degrees of freedom to change. The idea is to change that.

  • You seem to have some misconceptions about what you can change...
    If you use a PLEX to add gametime to your account... you can't change that.... EVER....
    If you spend isk in on a ship, on a plex, on a scam, on whatever... you can't change that.... EVER....
    If you lose a ship... you can't change that EVER....
    If you apply your SP learning to a skill... you can't change that... EVER...

    You can purchase a NEW plex.... but you can't undo your past mistake... You can earn more isk... but you can't undo your past spending. You can buy/sell a ship... but you can't undo it. Finally... you can train new skills, but you can't undo your past training. Likewise, you can change corps, but you can't undo your employment history. You can improve your sec status, but you can't undo a past sec hit. You can re-rig a ship, but you can't undo your rigs. You can install new implants, but you can't unplug your current implants.

    I'll admit there are precious few things you can change.... You can change the modules on your ship. You can change your Attributes... once a year...
    In the end, almost every decision you make in EvE is permanent, and you live with the consequences of that decision.

    Nagnor wrote:

    ...
    Remap counters are annual... I just explained that even annual SP redistribution would be abused... I have ~100m SP on my mains, and I would never unspec Perc/Will. I'd train at max rate all year... and once every year I'd simply redistribute my SP to instantly train new useful skills (like MJD, Target breaker Spectrum, Sensor Comp skills, etc)... this would not be a good thing!

  • Is people optimize their game play by using mechanics is and using multi step approaches to get more, bad? Then I must be very bad exchanging LPs for modules I sell on the market to pay for my purchases of faction ships while maximizing ISK/LP.

  • Optimizing your game play is bad for the game when it means you can undo the mistakes you made. Say you found an amazing LP conversion rate on a 6% implant... but after the fact couldn't sell them... It would be bad if you could refund that implant for LP to spend elsewhere.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #64 - 2013-04-05 17:41:08 UTC
    Nagnor wrote:

    ...
    Likewise-- see 2&3... Right before the summer patch, I could retrain to insure I pickup all the new BC & Dessie skills... Right after the last patch, I could retrain to produce BO BS's with perfect skills to profit from their buff... Last Summer I could have insta-trained to use and/or make t2 Siege/Triage modules. etc, etc... Big changes to the game happen 1-2 times a year... and this mechanic allows me to take full advantage of the changes with little to no foresight.

  • I'm not a vet like you, but sofar expansions are announce well in advanced, so there is foresight. And some people are taking full advantage of those changes. Eg I'm training BC 5/Command Ship 1 at the moment, even though I can not fly Command ships before the expansion I will be able to do so immediately after the expansion.

  • Expansions are announced in advance... and certain changes are heavily advertised... many changes are not well advertised, and take an understanding of game mechanics, and bit of exploration (like on the test server), and insight about the metagame to take full advantage of. For example: I realized how much frigates and cruisers would increase in price with the last expansions, and built/bought these assets in bulk before their prices doubled. Some of this backfired as I underestimated how long it would take to sell my stock and I had isk tied up for months. There are many examples of people training towards specific ships because they are soo potent... only to have CCP rebalance them soon after they train into them, leaving them with ships that are no longer king-of-the-hill. People that trained a different path often find their choices enable them to be king-of-the-hill until the next change comes. Even low-class WH's used to be super profitable... then low-class Nullsec... then Incursions... Then FW... Then... Torp Ravens used to be major fleet vessels, then 200 km sniping BS's, then laser Geddons, Then AHACs, Then kiting Drakes, then Alpha Maelstroms.. then Tracking Titans, Then blaster Rohks, Then kiting vagas, then slowcat carriers, then... (fleet doctrines not presented in order). Ships change, income changes, and having the ability to insta-switch to the newest fad, without the growing pains destroys a lot of the game's character... I understand what its like to find a new passion in the game, and wish you could have discovered it earlier so you'd be even more efficient at it now... but taking the time to earn that efficiency, having a history of progression, these are good things for the game, and should not be removed to satifisfy your desire for instant gratification. With EvE's SP system, you don't need perfect skills to be competitive... you don't need max efficiency to succeed.

    Nagnor wrote:

    Don't fool yourself that by the introduction of PLEX as step in between and CCP having a bit of control over the flow it is not P2W.
    You as a player are getting significant benefits for RL money. You talk about the lack of new advantages as reason for it not being P2W, where actually there are advantages namely in the form of omission in disadvantages.

    What kind of characters are being sold on the bazar? People no longer having the need/desire of an alt with the characteristics/SP that alt has and want to free up an alt slot on their account. An option to them would be to biomass it (total destruction of SP).
    Other characters that are sold on the bazar have actually been skilled just for the purpose of being sold. There are (vet) players that do so as a business. I don't know what the current b ISK/ m SP rate is and whether it is profitable enough to sustain PLEX and account by itself. Anyway on accounts which already have their (primary) character skilled completely (for its purpose), using the training queue on alts in order to prevent loss of SP gain are supplemental income. As an activity can be well combined with bot mining. Of course it would be insulting to them to cal them the Gold/SP farmer of EVE ;)

    As a player, you are taking the advantages of other players and making them yours, and those other players value the isk/game time you trade them for those advantages. This is win-win. And as a third party... no new advantages are created with that transfer. Your place in the universe doesn't improve or lessen because of the trade.

    I'll admit that you can say that character/isk wouldn't have been created if it wasn't for the opportunity of ascertaining a PLEX.. but I can accept that, as the EvE universe would be smaller without this opportunity (i.e. it would be less those that couldn't afford to play with RL cash).

    Bot mining is illegal, and the advantages of botting are independent of PLEX. CCP is improving their anti-bot actions, of which I'm thankful!

    Nagnor wrote:

    6.) Even if you allow it only once in a character's life time, we all know you'll be whining and bitching again in another year how you've changed your course through EvE, and want to move SP around again...

  • How is SP reallocation significantly different than attributes remapping? SP realloc effects SP training in the past, where remap training in the future.
  • Or do you propose to remove remap as well?
    ...

    They didn't used to allow annual remaps, and they changed it because your attribute mapping significantly effect your training rate. In general, new players don't have the knowledge and experience to truly know what they wish to do long term in EvE, not to mention their goals are very much subject to change as they and EvE evolve through various emergent gameplay.

  • Exactly!! So why allowing (limited) changes to allocations of points from Charisma & Memory to Perception & Willpower as you would with a remap, but not from Trade to Gunnery as would be the case with SP reallocation?

  • SP realloc effects SP training from the past, where remap alters training in the future.
    Mole Guy
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #65 - 2013-04-05 17:54:27 UTC
    i have 2 '03 characters and an '04 character.

    back then, we didnt have alot to go on as far as skills and directions. it was hit and miss. then all these planners came out. they can help you stream line characters to be extremely deadly in very little time.
    i have been an advocate for this for a long time.

    however, it was explained to me that "once you learn a skill, how can you unlearn it?"
    i mean, i cant know how to drive a car today and then tomorrow act as if i never drove before in my life and be a mathmatician.

    it made sence to me then..i agreed.


    but, this is eve. we are demi-gods due to cloning and neocomms.

    how do u unlearn a skill? when you die and a new clone is activated. you have a pre-death list set aside and when your clone is activated, u know how to do "other stuff".


    players who are older than 07, should be able to reallocate once! that accounts for all the years of skills/ships changing and not being what they started out to be or not being as good as ccp made it seem. skills change, ships change for balance...

    well, our brain should be able to chande once..for balance.

    newer players have had a myriad of tools to help them. but i really dont think we should be able to take skill points from one toon and give them to another.
    P0RKSW0RD
    Doomheim
    #66 - 2013-04-05 18:23:11 UTC
    [
    [/quote]
    So your argument is that SP reallocation doesn't suffer from chance/skil in making profit or losses on them? That can be address by putting maximum on the amount of SP that can be reallocated or a percentage (80, flexible?) of the old SP to be placed into new skills. For changing an Indus alt to PvP alt the SP loss is now almost 100%.

    [quote=Gizznitt Malikite]

    I wouldn't like to see it done as a percentage personally and thats coming from a character with quite alot of sp, I think this would give an unfair disadvantage to newer players and ccp are trying to make the game more user friendly to newer players.

    Also if it did happen I would like to see as a one time only offer and not an annual thing that could be easily exploited.

    As for the character bazaar, I'm not a huge fan tbh and I think it's way overpriced at the moment plus those with more money in real life have an unfair advantage on those that don't through PLEX.

    As for research if this type of post comes up as often as people have metioned then I think the idea mite be a little more popular than some people think.

    I agree with alot of points raised by both people who do and do not agree me, thanks to those who have taken the time to write constructive criticism.
    Nagnor
    The Happy Shooters
    #67 - 2013-04-05 19:23:45 UTC
    Mole Guy wrote:

    ...
    however, it was explained to me that "once you learn a skill, how can you unlearn it?"
    i mean, i cant know how to drive a car today and then tomorrow act as if i never drove before in my life and be a mathmatician.
    ...


    Slightly off topic: yes, you can. Occasionally happens in RL with traumas.

    If you are interested in this have a look at "Conscious Competence Learning Model" or "The Four Stages of Learning Any New Skill" by Noel Burch of Gordon Training International.

    With your car example

    1. Unconscious incompetence
    2. Kid: driving a car can't be that difficult, everybody does it
    3. Conscious incompetence
    4. While taking lessons: Holy ****, this is difficult
    5. Conscious competence
    6. After having passed the exam
    7. Unconscious competence
    8. Adult driving car daily

    Often it cycles back to Unconscious incompetence: Grandpa, you may have you license, but please don't drive 20 kmph on the motorway. Or DUI