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The Talos how will you fly it?
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Kiyl
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#61 - 2011-10-30 20:08:04 UTC
Ill fly it like a spaceship.
Alara IonStorm
#62 - 2011-10-30 20:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

Hmmm ... To each his own. I think it's silly to toss away 10% of your survivability against the most common PvP weapons system and race. Especially when you're flying something that's best beaten from range where minmatar shine, and their long-range kiting ammo is 83% explosive damage

Theory crafting on an uncommon Drake fit aside the Damage Layout to Barrage is 12 Exp 10 Kin. Barrage is not as common as people think, most Kiters use RF Ammo and TE's the Hurricane can go ether way depending on what range they kite from.

That combined with the fact that Exp Pumps do not increase your HP that much when stacked against EANM's and when Trimarks will improve the stat almost as much. Exp Pumps are better for Active Tanks and Logi Fleets but a Trimark is a much better trade off.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#63 - 2011-10-30 22:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Why so much theory crafting when all you have to do is orbit at 20 and burn it from there or from far distances?

If you manage intelligently and use so much skill to get in his web range, odds are that you get melted, it's his role right?

Or did someone else found another role for it?

Or maybe shouldn't he have some sort of role at all?


Any way what risks can you take? - chances are that hybrids will be more screwed than they already are, so keep your calm.
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2011-10-30 23:27:35 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Theory crafting on an uncommon Drake fit aside the Damage Layout to Barrage is 12 Exp 10 Kin. Barrage is not as common as people think, most Kiters use RF Ammo and TE's the Hurricane can go ether way depending on what range they kite from.

Err .. What's a 'common' heavy missile PvP drake if mine doesn't count? And yes, a Kiting cane had better be using barrage unless you really, really don't want to be hitting them with exp/kin. At 24km with two TE's, it's the difference beteween dealing 300 DPS (Barrage) and 200 DPS (RF anything). A cynabal might go either way because it gets the falloff bonus so it has the flexibility to do so. The tornado will, too

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/Trigsby/cane_rf_barrage.png
Dbars Grinding
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-10-31 02:20:44 UTC
to suicide gank miners and tengu.

I have more space likes than you. 
TrollFace TrololMcFluf
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2011-10-31 02:43:06 UTC
In packs with lots of falcons
Sylar Reuwich
Hek Trade and Industries
#67 - 2011-10-31 04:08:00 UTC
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Show your Work.

We will use this guys fit.

Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
1160 dps, 39k ehp, 1332 m/s with MWD, 200m sig radius,
[Talos, Neutron Blastalos]


Cept replace the EX Pump with a Trimark and the Tracking Comp with a second Web.

So starting out close range how does a 75k EHP 400 DPS Drake Pull it off.

The above fit is exactly what I used. Replacing the tracking computer does nothing. I doubt anyone would replace the ex pump with another trimark given how popular canes are (and soon to be tornadoes) so I won't slant the data by changing it.

[Drake, Drake fit]

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive /OFFLINE
Warp Disruptor II

Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

462 DPS with Scourge Furies (explosion radius 161 = full damage)
414 DPS with CN Scourge

Overheating both invulns gives 118K EHP vs void L (special case because it's 50/50 kn/th instead of usual 58%/42% of antimatter)

Estimating how long each will last against the other's dps is simple
118,000 / 1106 = ~106 seconds plus whatever recharge provides
39,000 / 462 = ~84 second

106/84 = ~Drake lasts about 26%+ longer than the Talos (orignal 15% estimation was without heat). Technically this means the Talos will always lose but I'm making allowances such as maybe you get a few lucky hits or maybe his skills aren't totally maxed or maybe you've got a few hybrid implants in.

"But wait" you say. "Most drakes I see are packing CN scourge! You're slanting the comparison!" Personally I would choose furies if I knew I would be attacking a close range BC unlikely to have an AB, but fair's fair:

39,000 / 414 = ~94 seconds. The fight's closer now, but the drake still has around a 12% longer expected lifetime plus whatever his passive regen is going to gain him. Not good for a blaster boat's best-case scenario. If you had to chase him any distance to grab him with your webs, you're toast. If he manages to jam you, you're toast. If you get anything less than slightly above average luck with the RNG on your damage rolls, you're toast.

"But wait! I'll overload my blasters! Hah!" Well blasters generate a lot of heat. Even if you manage to run them for the full minute-and-a-half-average it would take to kill a drake:
118,000 / 1220 = ~96 seconds (+ a few seconds to account for recharge)

And then he's likely to overheat his missiles:
39,000 / 487 (CN scourge) = ~80 seconds
39,000 / 544 (scourge fury) = ~71 seconds

His weapons generate more heat than yours do so he might stop overheating at some point making the numbers a tiny bit closer.

I can't speak to the use of a HAM drake, but DPS looks similar with a bit less EHP (101k vs void)

I hope these are put on the test server soon so the problem becomes more obvious. Drake is kind of the gold standard of battlecruisers, and to lose to a long range drake with a short range ship that gets a chance to apply all of its potential dps--and by a large margin-- is ridiculous. I'm partial to a drake nerf than a Talos buff personally

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
IIRC, someone ran the numbers a while back and concluded that even at point blank, at blaster optimal range, the tornado will still kill this in a fight. Best to wait until they launch and see what actually happens, but if that's the case, I'll be avoiding it.

Doesn't look like it. A Tornado that doesn't spend a lot of time kiting will get destroyed by a Talos that manages to catch it. I only get around 31.5K EHP with a cane'ish shield setup vs void. It'll still be popular because it's fast though, although solo it's toast by anything that can catch it


Despite what the stats might say I'm still gonna buy one when they come out and see how it does against your standard PvP Drake. I just can't see the Talos losing as easily as you say when a Myrmidon is capable of taking them out.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-10-31 04:13:43 UTC
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Theory crafting on an uncommon Drake fit aside the Damage Layout to Barrage is 12 Exp 10 Kin. Barrage is not as common as people think, most Kiters use RF Ammo and TE's the Hurricane can go ether way depending on what range they kite from.

Err .. What's a 'common' heavy missile PvP drake if mine doesn't count? And yes, a Kiting cane had better be using barrage unless you really, really don't want to be hitting them with exp/kin. At 24km with two TE's, it's the difference beteween dealing 300 DPS (Barrage) and 200 DPS (RF anything). A cynabal might go either way because it gets the falloff bonus so it has the flexibility to do so. The tornado will, too

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/Trigsby/cane_rf_barrage.png


Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Theory crafting on an uncommon Drake fit aside the Damage Layout to Barrage is 12 Exp 10 Kin. Barrage is not as common as people think, most Kiters use RF Ammo and TE's the Hurricane can go ether way depending on what range they kite from.

Err .. What's a 'common' heavy missile PvP drake if mine doesn't count? And yes, a Kiting cane had better be using barrage unless you really, really don't want to be hitting them with exp/kin. At 24km with two TE's, it's the difference beteween dealing 300 DPS (Barrage) and 200 DPS (RF anything). A cynabal might go either way because it gets the falloff bonus so it has the flexibility to do so. The tornado will, too

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/Trigsby/cane_rf_barrage.png



Yeah dude uncommon fit, that looks closer to a bait fit or null drake blob fit that a a small gang.

I can go through a stack of drake kills, and not find but one or two dual extender/dual invuln except bait kills...oh yeah, and its missing a nano.

Cool if you have a tackler or something for warp in's I guess, I don't fly Caldari, so its not really my forte.

I can get a couple blaster myths out right now.

No orbiting, you NEVER orbit with blasters, it makes them miss.
Overheating is not a question, usually once you are in range if you aren't already primary, you are about to be you light EVERYTHING if you don't have numbers, the only time you don't is when its a straight gank or you aren't being boxed.

Just assume that is how that is going to work.

No a Talos wouldn't be a good match for a long range drake, but then NOTHING with blasters is really good at range....it has ******* blasters no **** it's not going to do well again a brick tank drake that has a 50km head start, you know that when you undock the thing.

However, if you have a tackle and a couple support they boom splat stuff pretty good....and the Talos being a leaner faster version of my nano hype, hell ya. Whether or not its better than your drake on your spread sheet or not, it'll be fun, just like the rest of my blaster ships.
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-10-31 05:06:16 UTC
Onictus wrote:

Yeah dude uncommon fit, that looks closer to a bait fit or null drake blob fit that a a small gang.
...

No a Talos wouldn't be a good match for a long range drake, but then NOTHING with blasters is really good at range....it has ******* blasters no **** it's not going to do well again a brick tank drake that has a 50km head start, you know that when you undock the thing.

First statement: everybody is saying this but nobody will provide a fit and the one I used is more or less the most common I see.

Second statement: we're not talking about fighting a long range drake at range. We're talking about you landing near the drake within blaster optimal, snagging him, tearing into him with your blasters while he sits there taking it to the face without using his drones and still having a high probability of losing anyway. And that's with picture- and skill- perfect EFT blaster DPS numbers.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-10-31 05:16:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Yeah dude uncommon fit, that looks closer to a bait fit or null drake blob fit that a a small gang.
...

No a Talos wouldn't be a good match for a long range drake, but then NOTHING with blasters is really good at range....it has ******* blasters no **** it's not going to do well again a brick tank drake that has a 50km head start, you know that when you undock the thing.

First statement: everybody is saying this but nobody will provide a fit and the one I used is more or less the most common I see.

Second statement: we're not talking about fighting a long range drake at range. We're talking about you landing near the drake within blaster optimal, snagging him, tearing into him with your blasters while he sits there taking it to the face without using his drones and still having a high probability of losing anyway. And that's with picture- and skill- perfect EFT blaster DPS numbers.




Yeah who cares, I wouldn't have that ship out solo anyway, blaster ships with no tank are generally a poor choice for hero assualts.

I wouldn't chase that fight, and if you warped in on me with that fit I'd be elsewhere LONG before you got a KM out of if. Cook mids, align to something convient and bone out, and you would have no way to stop it.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14434861
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14520951
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14470365
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14434861

That is over that last couple weeks.
Tac Mannall
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2011-10-31 05:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tac Mannall
All these fits have been for a buffer tank. While good, I'd like to see what people can come up with for an active tank.
Also are those numbers for the proposed hybrid turret upgrades or current ones?

Edit: What I mean is, the Drake's damage against the Talos, in those numbers is relatively anemic, wouldn't an active tank extend the combat time of the Talos to the point where it would win reliably?
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2011-10-31 05:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen
Onictus wrote:
Yeah who cares, I wouldn't have that ship out solo anyway, blaster ships with no tank are generally a poor choice for hero assualts.

Well, blasters are poop in a fleet compared to anything that can reliably hit 25km'ish without moving much. And if they're not going to be good for get-in-gank-it-get-out-before-they-land PvP, what's left? Your low EHP and low gtfo ability are going to result in you being primary in most small pvp engagements. You'd last 30 seconds against 3 drakes for instance. If you started out decloaking on them with your fleet, half of that time is going to be spent mwd'ing 15km and the other half with your hull on fire.

Quote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14434861
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14520951
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14470365
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14434861

That is over that last couple weeks.

Heavy missile nano drake with TWO WEBS? Right, because more than one (if that) is going to help
Two HAM drakes. HAMs are pretty terrible already, I can't remember the last time I encountered one
And a fleet fitting with a sensor booster, passive amp and afterburner?

I'm not sure those are great examples of well-thought-out heavy missile long range setups personally

Quote:
I wouldn't chase that fight anyway, and if you warped in on me with that fit I'd be elsewhere LONG before you got a KM out of if. Cook mids, align to something convient and bone out, and you would have no way to stop it.

From what perspective? Drake wouldn't land right on top of you unless they're extremely stupid so that doesn't make sense from a Talos' perspective, yet the Drake certainly won't be going anywhere with a scram and 90% web on it so the Drake perspective doesn't make sense either

(edit)
Quote:
Also are those numbers for the proposed hybrid turret upgrades or current ones?

Proposed hybrid boosts
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2011-10-31 06:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Yeah who cares, I wouldn't have that ship out solo anyway, blaster ships with no tank are generally a poor choice for hero assualts.

Well, blasters are poop in a fleet compared to anything that can reliably hit 25km'ish without moving much. And if they're not going to be good for get-in-gank-it-get-out-before-they-land PvP, what's left? Your low EHP and low gtfo ability are going to result in you being primary in most small pvp engagements. You'd last 30 seconds against 3 drakes for instance. If you started out decloaking on them with your fleet, half of that time is going to be spent mwd'ing 15km and the other half with your hull on fire.


If you are going to flirt around at the edge of point range, don't bring the ship...there are a LOT of hulls that are better at it than a Talos, and blaster ships are always primary because they are either dangerous and chasing the squishiest thing they can find, or are just squishy themselves....its the name of the game.

Large blasters hit from 25,000km if you set up for it, you aren't going to do paper DPS but you can hit with them.....again, if you are rolling that way, just fit rails, it'll be a close race between neutrons and 350mm rails to which does worse DPS at 25km with a fast orbiting hull.

I wouldn't use it as a large fleet ride, it'll be great for station gaming and screwing around with carriers and dreads, wormholes (yay mass limit and big guns) and of course run and gun style small gang stuff.


Quote:

Heavy missile nano drake with TWO WEBS? Right, because more than one (if that) is going to help
Two HAM drakes. HAMs are pretty terrible already, I can't remember the last time I encountered one
And a fleet fitting with a sensor booster and passive amp?


I didn't say they were good fits Big smile, I said yours was uncommon, I could keep going down the killboard....but its academic really.
Quote:

I'm not sure those are great examples of well-thought-out heavy missile long range setups personally


Likely not

Quote:
Drake wouldn't land right on top of you unless they're extremely stupid so that doesn't make sense from a Talos' perspective, yet the Drake certainly won't be going anywhere with a scram and 90% web on it so the Drake perspective doesn't make sense either


That was kind of my point, tackling a faster ship with a long point is (ironically) pointless. Talos doesn't have close to a Myrmidon or Drake's tank, but it has enough to GTFO.

The thought process is pretty simple, if you are getting the warp in overheat and hope, they aren't escaping, maybe you get lucky maybe not.

If I have to chase you, yeah, no, I'm out. Faster or not, that is a lot of primo missile damage to eat burning in and your already know that the drake has more tank than you. That just isn't good for business.
Pimukka
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2011-10-31 09:02:59 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
Gonna fly it as a salvager.

Haters gonna hate.


I lolled
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#75 - 2011-10-31 09:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Assume:

Basic Talos fit (8x neutrons with Void, trimarks, DC, 2x MFS and EAMM, with hobgoblins)
Implant-less HAM Drake (6x HAM, 1x HM with Rage/Fury, 3x BCS, MWD, web, scram, CDFEs, hobgoblins)
Basic shield Cane (425s, dual med neut, LSE and Inv, 3x gyor, 2x TE, warriors)
Tornado 8x 800s with Hail, dual LSE, Invuln, DC, 3x gyro, CDFEs.

Overloaded Invulns but not weapons (not much difference, can't be arsed to redo damage types manually)
Ignore tracking but assume that fight starts at blaster optimal

Talos vs. HAM Drake
Talos: 42.6k EHP, receiving 660 DPS, time-to-die is 64.5 s
Drake: 96.4k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 83.1 s
Conclusion: HAM Drake comfortably beats Talos at Talos's optimal

Talos vs. shield Cane
Talos: 36.6k EHP, receiving 769 DPS, time-to-die is 47.6 s
Cane: 54.1k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 46.6 s
Conclusion: If the fight doesn't start at blaster optimal, the Talos will lose.

Talos vs. Tornado
Talos: 36.7k EHP, receiving 980 DPS, time-to-die is 37.4 s
Tornado: 47.1k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 40.6 s
Conclusion: Tornado beats Talos even at Talos's optimal

You can object to the three gyros on the Tornado, it would probably have drop one for a TE, and maybe a LSE/CDFE for another falloff mod/rig. But if you so choose, you can fit up a Tornado so that it kicks a Talos's face in even if the fight starts at the Talos's optimal. Similarly, the basic HAM Drake will also kill it. I know that HAM Drakes are unfavoured these days, but that's because they're slow, short-range platforms... but so is the Talos.

The worst thing, though, is the way that a basic shield Hurricane will kill the Talos if it can apply basically any DPS to the Talos before blaster optimal is reached. So the 90% web may look sexy and be fun in camps, but it'll be Hurricanes Online still.
Maurospanthiras
Bregandaerth
#76 - 2011-10-31 09:50:47 UTC
like a boss
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#77 - 2011-10-31 11:12:27 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Assume:

Basic Talos fit (8x neutrons with Void, trimarks, DC, 2x MFS and EAMM, with hobgoblins)
Implant-less HAM Drake (6x HAM, 1x HM with Rage/Fury, 3x BCS, MWD, web, scram, CDFEs, hobgoblins)
Basic shield Cane (425s, dual med neut, LSE and Inv, 3x gyor, 2x TE, warriors)
Tornado 8x 800s with Hail, dual LSE, Invuln, DC, 3x gyro, CDFEs.

Overloaded Invulns but not weapons (not much difference, can't be arsed to redo damage types manually)
Ignore tracking but assume that fight starts at blaster optimal

Talos vs. HAM Drake
Talos: 42.6k EHP, receiving 660 DPS, time-to-die is 64.5 s
Drake: 96.4k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 83.1 s
Conclusion: HAM Drake comfortably beats Talos at Talos's optimal

Talos vs. shield Cane
Talos: 36.6k EHP, receiving 769 DPS, time-to-die is 47.6 s
Cane: 54.1k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 46.6 s
Conclusion: If the fight doesn't start at blaster optimal, the Talos will lose.

Talos vs. Tornado
Talos: 36.7k EHP, receiving 980 DPS, time-to-die is 37.4 s
Tornado: 47.1k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 40.6 s
Conclusion: Tornado beats Talos even at Talos's optimal

You can object to the three gyros on the Tornado, it would probably have drop one for a TE, and maybe a LSE/CDFE for another falloff mod/rig. But if you so choose, you can fit up a Tornado so that it kicks a Talos's face in even if the fight starts at the Talos's optimal. Similarly, the basic HAM Drake will also kill it. I know that HAM Drakes are unfavoured these days, but that's because they're slow, short-range platforms... but so is the Talos.

The worst thing, though, is the way that a basic shield Hurricane will kill the Talos if it can apply basically any DPS to the Talos before blaster optimal is reached. So the 90% web may look sexy and be fun in camps, but it'll be Hurricanes Online still.



Hurricanes/Tornados Online, and I will probably be on that side rather the other one unless very specific and rare situations (like gank some bot carrier or tengu mwahaha)
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#78 - 2011-10-31 12:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
I think the Scorch Oracle will be very popular too, with very impressive damage projection and the damage type to hurt all the shield Hurricanes and Tornados, and HM Drakes.

The 90% web sounds great but I think it's being overrated, away from the gatecamp environment I mean. Current blasterboats can fit a web and scram and can track same-size targets fine. Their problem is getting into web range, which a 90% web doesn't help with at all, really, and the fact that, thanks to damage types and tanking styles, an AC counterpart has basically the same applied DPS at close range. Yes, the Talos has a nice turn of speed, but the Tornado is so much more flexible and powerful, and doesn't have to go into suicide self-tackle range.

The Naga... I just don't see a reason to fly it. At all. If you fit it with blasters for close-range work, then you'd be better off with a Talos, even ignoring the fact that you'd be better off hanging at 20 km with a Tornado anyway. For ranged work, I suspect the Scorch Oracle will be better than a rail-Naga (I haven't analysed the fits yet), and the artillery Tornado will be very popular too. The torp fit is basically a more mobile, even more weakly tanked torp Raven. It's got nice DPS, but applying that DPS to BCs will require significant painter support. Why bother, when you can just use a Tornado? It'll have a very niche role as a POS-whacker in C1 WHs, using HBT rigs and Rage to sit at 30 km, but it's hard to see the point of it otherwise.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#79 - 2011-10-31 18:19:13 UTC
2011.

Turret users still orbit missile users.


Never change fitting forums.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Sylar Reuwich
Hek Trade and Industries
#80 - 2011-10-31 19:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylar Reuwich