These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

What are the main reasons AFK cloaking exists and is disliked.

Author
Alyssa Haginen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-04-03 06:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyssa Haginen
People go AFK cloaked because they are forced to by the local player list. Local makes you visible and lets other players know you are in system. So the obvious move is to wait for a target willing to risk their ship to PvE in the system your in.

A few reasons AFK cloaking and cloaking in general is disliked.

1. Its bad for bots. If players were not listed in local bots would have a real hard time with cloaked ships jumping in. Even if CCP added a much needed 30 or 60 second auto d-scan button. Bots would go down all over new eden.

2. Its bad for your hardcore bear. He can no longer feel safe like he lives in some sort of new eden nullsec suburbia.

3. Its bad for capitals and haulers. Cloaked sabres and other various methods can be used to take down bigger targets.

This is all a part of the game. These are the dangers you risk for a higher isk payout. Same things with jumping capitals or transporting goods. The true problem is not cloaking at all. The real problem here is the psychological effect of having every single person listed in local chat that is in system. In nullsec there are great sites you can run yourself and the risk of attack will always be there. That was the way eve was intended to be... the lower the security number the more scary and dangerous it is with a greater reward.

Edit---People who complain about not being able to find cloaks dont have the idea. The point is not to be seen or scanned. Thats why CCP made bombers easy to kill. They can tackle quick but they go down just as quick. Same with recons they have a 5 or 6 second target delay+targeting time making it very hard to tackle bc and down hulls. The funny part is most of you bears think your corp is so great when really a good portion of them are feeding information to some other corp. Nobody cares about you as a person in eve only as a target. If you suck people hate you because you suck..If your good people hate you becasue your good. If your there people will blame you just because.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#2 - 2013-04-03 06:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Azrael Dinn
So the problem seems to be local. Yes we know, lots of topics about all of this Blink

--- edit ---

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699&p=2

you shoud read this

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#3 - 2013-04-03 06:32:25 UTC
And in regards to local being removed, there is more to it then just local!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2827608#post2827608

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Alyssa Haginen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-04-03 06:55:13 UTC
Local intel is live intel though compared to jumps though your system or something. The only other live intel you can get I think is current cynos on the star map. The rest is delayed intel and most of it is at best vague as far as stating one single cloaky that jumps in. Without local people would rely on the star map intel more but it wont really be much of a hassle. I can see it now..


Fleet commander is looking on the star map and sees a big huge dot from a titan bridge. He sends scouts to locate and track down the enemy fleet. The scouts have now found the enemy fleet but without local its their job to get numbers. Ready to attack the commander looks on the map again and sees another new big red dot close by. He still decides to carry out attack on the enemy fleet but call for backups to be ready on a titan bridge. They attack at a pos and soon after the enemy fleet bridges in a swarm of ships. At this time numbers will be impossible to get without local..the commander has to make the choice to either cyno in the backup fleet or retreat in the heat of the moment. In this case he decides to bring in everything and all kind of ships blow up. Great fun for both sides.


I also looked at the other thread and I'm only a fan of fueling cloaks if local listing comes off.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#5 - 2013-04-03 08:32:03 UTC
AFK cloakers are disliked and whined about because they disrupt bots and introduce a tiny sliver of risk that filthy nullbears are unwilling to deal with (why are they in nullsec to begin with?)
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#6 - 2013-04-03 08:45:15 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
AFK cloakers are disliked and whined about because they disrupt bots and introduce a tiny sliver of risk that filthy nullbears are unwilling to deal with (why are they in nullsec to begin with?)


Cause they want to be in different parts of the universe just like you and it's fun to bear somewhere else than empire also.

But I still dislike afk-cloakers or active-cloakers cause theres no way to find them and I know alot of people who hates cloaks for that same reason also. Blink

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-04-03 10:13:13 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
AFK cloakers are disliked and whined about because they disrupt bots and introduce a tiny sliver of risk that filthy nullbears are unwilling to deal with (why are they in nullsec to begin with?)


Cause they want to be in different parts of the universe just like you and it's fun to bear somewhere else than empire also.

But I still dislike afk-cloakers or active-cloakers cause theres no way to find them and I know alot of people who hates cloaks for that same reason also. Blink


AFK cloak = not at keyboard doing PvP. Brilliant - and your arguments against botting in the game are? ...

That's where some of us have issues with this.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#8 - 2013-04-03 10:20:25 UTC
The main problem with AFK cloaking is that it's impossible to escape. It is impossible to uncloak while AFK cloaked. I tried it about an hour ago but failed immediately. Even typing this post proved surprisingly difficult. I think I'll be stuck until next DT. Ugh
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9 - 2013-04-03 15:04:22 UTC
The main problem with cloaking, AFK or otherwise, is that its impossible to do anything about.


It's a mechanic that puts 100% of the initiative into the cloakers hands, and there is no way to do anything about it other than maintain 100% constant vigilance against a threat that may or may not be present, and may be anything from a single bomber to a capital fleet.

It is impractical and unreasonable for anyone not in a super alliance with a capital combat fleet on standby 100% of the time to have to deal with. It creates a ludicriously imbalanced Risk vs. Reward scenario. If you are not in a huge alliance with a massive combat wing on standby 100% of the time, doing anything in the system with a cloaked neutral is like playing russian roulette for pennies, except sometimes the gun is just a pair of fingers pointed at your head, and sometimes it's a fully mobilized military machine capable of prosecuting a protracted war---or anything in between and no way to tell between them until it fires.

It is poor game design, breaking the rock,paper,scissors plan.

It is not unreasonable for Sov holders to want to secure their space for the activities of their non-combat wings. It's not unreasonable for there to be a way to attack those non-combat wings. It is perhaps unreasonable that the concentrated activity of 100's of players cannot in anyway prevent the ability of a single player to sit in 'their' space projecting the credible threat of a capital ship fleet jumping in to disrupt activities.

It's not really the afk that is bad. It's where the initiative of conflict rests. No pilot should feel safe enough to afk deep in enemy territory---that is a clearly broken mechanic. I'd go with a ship fit like a Cov Ops frigate with little to no offensive value of it's own being able to find them, and call in fleetmates to deal with them---much like the threat the cloaker is projecting on the system he's in himself. The cloaker should be as vunerable to dedicated hunting as any other solo pilot in space, bear or not.

The expenditure of a single frigate should not be able to project that much threat at such a low threshold of effort and ISK. This is regardless of how people react to it---the threat is credibly and potentially real, and far beyond the Reward so little Risk should provide.

Local and other mechanics are seperate issues that need looking at as well, but in no way mitigate the brokenness of the Risk/Reward ratio of cloaking. AFK cloaking is just a logical extension of a ludicriously borked mechanic, no better or worse than afk mining or mission running. The issue is in the cloaking mechanic and it's lack of any effective counters at all, regardless of the amount of effort you put into mitigating or nullifying it.
Alyssa Haginen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-04-03 15:20:28 UTC
A way to provide security from cloaked ships is not that hard. When I was in null there used to be a corp that would bait the afk cloakers into attacking. When they do decloak they would be jumped by a few combat ships waiting in system. That is how providing protection from the unseen with a combat wing works. Covert ops ships do not have very good tanks.
El Geo
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#11 - 2013-04-03 15:50:28 UTC
you know theres a saying about this, it goes "assumption is the mother of all **** ups"

theres a reason why the 'AFK Cloakies' threads never go anywhere and that problem is the simple fact people pigeon hole any cloaked ship in their little piece of dullsov space as being afk, i mean think about it, what are they going to do wave at you every 5 minutes so you know they are at the keyboard?

As much as i'd like to see a new dimension added to cloaking warfare (covert ops bs, some sort of cloaky sonar etc) it will never happen becuase all theese stupid threads ASSUME THAT A CLOAKED PILOT IS AFK

that is all
El Geo
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#12 - 2013-04-03 15:51:36 UTC
Alyssa Haginen wrote:
A way to provide security from cloaked ships is not that hard. When I was in null there used to be a corp that would bait the afk cloakers into attacking. When they do decloak they would be jumped by a few combat ships waiting in system. That is how providing protection from the unseen with a combat wing works. Covert ops ships do not have very good tanks.


Yes, becuase people who are AFK can be baited, please tell me more how you baited someone who wasnt even at the computer?
Dave Stark
#13 - 2013-04-03 15:56:14 UTC
why is afk cloaky camping hated so much?
because people are so risk averse that they would rather dock up and ship spin than ignore an afk player.

why does it exist?
because risk averse players let it upset them so much, so it's a great way to **** people off with minimal effort.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-04-03 18:38:45 UTC
Why does it exist? See comment above.

Since i don't know what others might think on this subject I will only tell you why I don't like it.

You can not easily tell if another player is afk in this game.

And the playstyle gives the risk averse players an exuse to be risk averse.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#15 - 2013-04-03 19:35:18 UTC
Alyssa Haginen wrote:
People go AFK cloaked because they are forced to by the local player list. Local makes you visible and lets other players know you are in system. So the obvious move is to wait for a target willing to risk their ship to PvE in the system your in.

A few reasons AFK cloaking and cloaking in general is disliked.

1. Its bad for bots. If players were not listed in local bots would have a real hard time with cloaked ships jumping in. Even if CCP added a much needed 30 or 60 second auto d-scan button. Bots would go down all over new eden.

2. Its bad for your hardcore bear. He can no longer feel safe like he lives in some sort of new eden nullsec suburbia.

3. Its bad for capitals and haulers. Cloaked sabres and other various methods can be used to take down bigger targets.

This is all a part of the game. These are the dangers you risk for a higher isk payout. Same things with jumping capitals or transporting goods. The true problem is not cloaking at all. The real problem here is the psychological effect of having every single person listed in local chat that is in system. In nullsec there are great sites you can run yourself and the risk of attack will always be there. That was the way eve was intended to be... the lower the security number the more scary and dangerous it is with a greater reward.



As for the psychological effects of having people listed in local when they want to bot. I don't care. They are my enemy, why should I give a rats arse about their feelings. If they are bothered by my presence that is up to them. They choose to be upset and shut down their bots when I jump in. It's their choice.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#16 - 2013-04-04 13:28:00 UTC
Quote:
It is poor game design, breaking the rock,paper,scissors plan.


the rock paper scissors plan?
its more like

cloaking beats null bear
local beats cloaking
afk cloaking beats local
whine on forums in attempt to subvert MMO sandbox game still does not beat afk cloaking lol

if the nullbear instead tried to do something about it rather than whining to CCP the whole process would be a lot simpler.

cloaking>lonely/not very smart null bear
allied/smart nullbear>cloaking.

alas, non-risk averse, non-dumb, non-lonely null bears are difficult to come by in a complex, PvP centric, MMO sandbox game...go figure.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Valkyri Peacekeeper
Bunch of Cowboys
Requiem Eternal
#17 - 2013-04-09 13:15:30 UTC
and this psychological warfare of bluff makes whiners more engaged and affected...

you want eve to be realistic? well, real life threat/risk/reward/glory mixing in a tub of existence you call your account character in-game has never been better here than in other mmorpgs :) reason why i love this game... Coz it teaches me not to expect that I would always win...that I have to adapt to survive and progress :)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#18 - 2013-04-09 14:00:48 UTC
Valkyri Peacekeeper wrote:
and this psychological warfare of bluff makes whiners more engaged and affected...

you want eve to be realistic? well, real life threat/risk/reward/glory mixing in a tub of existence you call your account character in-game has never been better here than in other mmorpgs :) reason why i love this game... Coz it teaches me not to expect that I would always win...that I have to adapt to survive and progress :)

Now, if only current gameplay always followed this principle.

Seriously, the problem with AFK cloaking simply represents a break in the flow of logic being used...

Local alerts player to non blue presence. Since everyone is aligned to a safe, just hit warp.
(Chance of hostile success is zero if followed correctly)

Send a blob crew to remove hostiles, assuming they don't leave on their own.
(Silly non blues should know by now PvP won't happen in this system anyways)

Blob crew reports they are unable to locate the non blue. Probable cloak, with possible cyno too.
(What? the guide book says we gotta wait, or we will expose our ships to possible risk.... darned AFK cloaker!)

That's the beauty of it. The cloaking vessel knows they have a captive audience. Local tells them who is in attendance just like it keeps the PvE side informed the cloaking pilot is still present too. Works both ways like that.
They can even do a fly by if they can locate a POS, and see the little PvE ships like goldfish in their little bowl, swimming around in circles... waiting....

So, since this is an obvious stalemate, neither side is losing ships while both sides are sitting idle waiting, the presence of balance is obvious.
Frustrating perhaps, but still obvious.

If you make it so local can report if the cloaking pilot is AFK, or force a fuel need that makes them leave to refuel, you hand the PvE pilots an "I Win" button. It just has a delay on it as dictated by the limit used.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#19 - 2013-04-09 14:14:01 UTC
******* hell, u all need to step back and understand that afk cloaking hurts no one, its a terror tactic.

its when afk cloakers arent afk that u worry. but unfortunately the only ones that know an afk cloaky isnt afk is the afk cloaker himself, and the ratter that get pointed and killed by him. its an inevitable eventuality.

it is not however a reason to go sobbing onto forums about how unfair this game is, breaking news gentle nullbears, life isnt fair, get over yourselves and get on with null sec life.

if ur scared about a small bomber killing ur 2 bil isk tengu then id suggest looking into other ways of making isk or a better way of doing what u do now, that give you a good chance at killing anyone in a bomber that tries to tackle u whilst making money.

however if ur crying cause u come back after leaving ur bot running for hours on end and uve been either forcably separated from your ship and pod or ur bots docked u up cause theres someone permanently in ur system... then go suck on a ****. i wouldnt want u in my alliance.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#20 - 2013-04-09 14:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
I've always been against nerfing cloaks as I've spent time in WHs and they're pretty necessary for that stuff.

Then recently I did a load of nullsec bearing and had a red cloaky all up in the system I was in and I was like "Noooo! now I understand what all those whiners were whining about in their anti-cloaking threads on the forum!!!"...

...For about the 3 seconds it took me to work out how to get around it as a nullbear. Move one system away.

Yes, it really is that easy. If there is an AFK cloaky in your system and you don't like it, move one system away and the problem disappears. Or the cloaky follows you and you then know they're not AFK and you and your corp mates can set up a trap for the unfortunate chap.

Null isn't meant to be safe. It's all about making it as safe as you can with current game mechanics.

EDIT: - corebloodbrothers for CSM!
123Next pageLast page