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Why risk versus reward doesn't matter
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#121 - 2013-04-03 01:45:42 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Low sec is still empire that, real player driven madness (other than the markets) happens in nullsec and wormholes That's why you always see null sec and wormholes featured in CCP's Ads for the game. When was the last time we saw a CCP Advert for the game of a dude running mission after mission after bloody mission in high sec?


Bait and switch is the oldest advertising scam around, and we all know how CCP feels about scamming players.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#122 - 2013-04-03 01:57:15 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Quick, what does a Bulletproof Vest provide? Protection.


Quick, I think 10001 players in High-Sec could actually use a bulletproof vest (with ceramic plates even), as CONCORD does jack for protection. By the time CONCORD gets to you, you're dead, and the other dude is just waiting for his cheap gank ship to get blown up (he loses nothing, as NPCs don't pod him, either).

If CONCORD really was about protection, they would've been like my dad who was a cop...right there, with a weapon right at the ear of an offender. Move. Dead.


So... your Dad never heard of response times, I guess?

Quote:
So this is something for CCP to think about. How much REAL protection do they offer, and how many players they really want subscribed. Because they can just look at the 800lb gorilla in the room for ideas on what's popular 10 years running.

Time is money, friend.


CCP has seen its subscriber numbers consistently grow since EVE launched in 2003 (the only MMO on the market to have done so). In the past year or two, Blizzard has hemorrhaged about 5 EVEs worth of subscribers (2011 peak of 12m, down to a Jan 2013 9.6m).

Who should be asking whom about what now?

Not to mention that every MMO that has tried to compete with WOW by being a "better themepark," as you suggest CCP should do with EVE, is either dead or dying.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jarod Leercap
On Three 125
#123 - 2013-04-03 02:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarod Leercap
Forum discarded the post; not re-typing
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2013-04-03 02:50:07 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
So... your Dad never heard of response times, I guess?


I guess he already knew about them being an infantryman in Korea and Vietnam.

Like if you don't respond fast enough your buddies and you are going to die. Which is why he got the bronze star in Korea, by knocking out a machinegun nest that was pinning down the squad.

RubyPorto wrote:
CCP has seen its subscriber numbers consistently grow since EVE launched in 2003 (the only MMO on the market to have done so). In the past year or two, Blizzard has hemorrhaged about 5 EVEs worth of subscribers (2011 peak of 12m, down to a Jan 2013 9.6m).


And where did these players come from again (as MMOs share many of the same players)?

Do you know how many who play EvE and playing WoW?

You bet it's more than the "vets" in numbers.

No MMO is a an island.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#125 - 2013-04-03 03:07:12 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
I guess he already knew about them being an infantryman in Korea and Vietnam.

Like if you don't respond fast enough your buddies and you are going to die. Which is why he got the bronze star in Korea, by knocking out a machinegun nest that was pinning down the squad.


Are Police in your conception of reality both Omniscient and Omnipresent?

If So, where is this magic fairyland?
If Not, they provide the same service as CONCORD. They do not prevent any specific crime (except in very rare circumstances when they happen onto the scene), they just show up afterward to investigate the crime and (combined with the judicial system) punish criminals.

Quote:

And where did these players come from again (as MMOs share many of the same players)?

Do you know how many who play EvE and playing WoW?

You bet it's more than the "vets" in numbers.

No MMO is a an island.


So, you're saying that the game company who is gaining subscribers should take advice from the game company who is losing subscribers because some of the subscribers subscribe to both?

What?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2013-04-03 03:18:13 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Are Police in your conception of reality both Omniscient and Omnipresent?


They would be nice to have in EvE. Having them jail or even kill Goons and likewise pirates would be a blessing...and you know many would be rooting for the cleanup, too.

RubyPorto wrote:
If So, where is this magic fairyland?


Knock, knock: you're playing EvE.

I hope you don't think it's reality. Shocked

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#127 - 2013-04-03 03:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Are Police in your conception of reality both Omniscient and Omnipresent?


They would be nice to have in EvE. Having them jail or even kill Goons and likewise pirates would be a blessing...and you know many would be rooting for the cleanup, too.

RubyPorto wrote:
If So, where is this magic fairyland?


Knock, knock: you're playing EvE.

I hope you don't think it's reality. Shocked


You're the one who brought your father's police service into this, implying that it magically did not include response times.


I know what service CONCORD provides (it's Protection), how it provides it (x seconds before tons of inescapable EWAR of all flavors and some slight damage from the Cruisers followed y seconds later by 1 shot destruction from the Battleship. This is why you can use Cap Boosters to good effect with a Smartbomb-based Suicide Gank.).

By the way, CONCORD destroys everything that performs a criminal act in HS.

I brought up some RL analogies to prove a linguistic point. You seemed to decide to go somewhere strange with that.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2013-04-03 04:10:20 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
I know what service CONCORD provides (it's Protection)


You also are claiming CONCORD can't be tanked. Ugh

Ask your Goon gatecampers how uninformed that remark is!

You can definitely tank their guns, especially if going for a prized target.

Now off for some fun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qwmnizB9Oo

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#129 - 2013-04-03 04:24:13 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Because it has no relationship to how things really work. You can always make the most money in areas where there is the most stability. And when you think about it that makes sense. here is what doesn't.

The price of stability is a higher "price of admission". I could mine gold in the Congo or in Alaska. In the Congo there are less barriers to entry and lower overall costs, but significantly more risk. It is the first part that is missing in EvE hi sec, barriers to entry and higher overall costs.

Nothing is free in a "civilized" nation or space. Where are the mining permits and the subsequent outlaws that mine without a permit? Where are the taxes, beyond corporate taxes, for living in protected space? Docking permits, trade license, etc.

Beyond making the hi sec experience realistic it could add flavor to the game. Loose practices in some factions including corrupt officials or tight laws down to a specific permit required for each type of ore. All available at a local space station.

Risk versus reward is bozo. Lo sec is about freedom, hi sec is about sacrificing those freedoms for protection.


I'm glad you aren't an economist.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#130 - 2013-04-03 04:36:34 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
I know what service CONCORD provides (it's Protection)


You also are claiming CONCORD can't be tanked. Ugh

Ask your Goon gatecampers how uninformed that remark is!

You can definitely tank their guns, especially if going for a prized target.


Well, at least you're being clear on how informed you are on game mechanics.

EVELOPEDIA wrote:
On any actions that Concord has deemed unacceptable, they will respond by destroying the offender's ship. The offender's pod is not touched. It is considered an exploit to dodge Concord's response.


In this instance, Evelopedia has it exactly right, btw. You cannot tank CONCORD, you cannot dodge CONCORD, once you get a criminal tag in HS, your ship will be destroyed.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2013-04-03 09:02:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:

i don't buy this. Cool

because when people are happy no one will whine in forums. And miner gankers tears fill the forums every patch or even more often. Sometime i even can't find ganked miners tears Lol

while we are here: it was cool to see someone with mark like "TEAR ... extraction service" who whined a lot.... Not sure if their group extracts tears from other people. Or their name is like "potato farm" - they extract tears from their own members Lol


See, some people around here have been mistaking complaints about barge balance with "crying". In reality barge ganking took a hit but thanks to most miners picking untanked retreivers with t2 mining gear fitted we still can make a profit. Like always, us bad guys have adapted.

"complaints" and "tears" only have different in semantics.
tears - come from miners, mission runners and carebears
complaints - come from "elite", pvp and hardcore players.

At least it's what you "bad guys" say. However every smart person will say that in reality there is no difference.

And not only you "bad guys" adapt - everyone does it. Every time.

The one observation still remains: "bad guys" usually spend 10x times more posts for tears than their victims Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2013-04-03 09:07:36 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
The one observation still remains: "bad guys" usually spend 10x times more posts for tears than their victims Lol


This was a refreshing read...

= Read the Last Comment =

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#133 - 2013-04-03 09:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
March rabbit wrote:
And not only you "bad guys" adapt - everyone does it. Every time.


Really? So why, then, are there scads of miners who never fit a tank to their ship?

Why did they never adapt to the large scale ganking going on around them during the Summer of HAG? Why did CCP have to step in and do it for them?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-04-03 10:09:35 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

None of these are preventative agents (the Secret Service has a different part of the structure that does prevention), all of them are referred to as protective. (The US Supreme Court has even ruled on a case saying that the Police have no duty to prevent any specific crime, and thus cannot be held responsible if they fail to do so.)

I don't get it. You mean policeman will stay and wait until you attacked/dead and then take weapon of "bad guy" and let him out independent of attack result?
And your "protection of MrPresident" doesn't include analyzing of possible attacks, defensive measurements up to direct cover of his body and all this stuff? You mean i can get right next to him, put my gun to his head and no one will even pay attention up to my shot? Shocked

I can't say about your USA laws but here in Russia we have different rules for different crimes. At least you won't get out just thrown your weapon after attack. And known outlaws always tracked. And police will try to recover my stolen stuff (at least this is written in laws).

The CONCORD only reacts to happened aggression. It won't try to rescue your stolen stuff. It won't track known criminals (it will but only 15 minutes, LoL).

Even on this terms i don't see reasons to pay anything for this service on top of my taxes.

RubyPorto wrote:

Concord provides Protection. The Secret Service provides Protection (not one Presidential Assassin or would-be Assassin has gotten away). The Police provide protection (even though a lot of criminals get away wit their crimes). A bulletproof vest provides protection (even though it does nothing to stop someone from shooting you).

i think you overestimate your "bulletproof vest" effect.

RL:
- How many suicide attacks happened last 100 years? Lots
- How many presidents were killed? I know about 1 (Cennedy). Maybe it was someone another too tho.

You really sure by only killing attacker they could get this result? I'm sure - it's not.

Eve online:
- How many hulks were killed last year? Lots.
- How many suicide gankers stopped their business because of CONCORD (read: in the fear of loosing this precious and f... expensive catalyst)? I'm pretty sure - not one.

Result: i still have to see any reasons to additional payments.

RubyPorto wrote:

Ratting: Worse than (maybe on par with) Incursions (esp using similar Equipment/Equipment value). Missions are no longer the comparison point for HS red-cross-shooting income.

i guess you have never finished 1 lvl4 mission. Or maybe have it forgottten completely. I will refresh your memory:
- different NPC (damage/tank profiles)
- mission location few jumps away
- different EWAR from NPC (jamming, tracking disruption, sensor dampening, ...)
- ...?

Compare it to:
- 1 NPC type
- predefined and well-known damage/tank profile
- predefined and well-known EWAR
- no jumps outside of your system
- faction spawns
- escalation (at least there was escalations from Drone Horde in 2011-2012) which leads to great bonus

Add here effort about salvaging/looting: jumps from station to mission system, gates and all this stuff.

And stop using incursions please. Only small part of players do it. The main ISK source is lvl4s.

RubyPorto wrote:
PvP: is a cost, by any economic measurement.
SOV: is a cost. What income do you gain simply from holding Sov?
Outposts: Worse than HS stations, and the Fees are simply removing a cost of living there, at best (they do not create any ISK or material, they just adjust who gets to keep it).

don't like PvP? Welcome to high-sec then. Don't ask CCP to reward you to having PvP in areas MADE for PvP.
Reward of PvP: your killboard and killed enemies. If this is not what would you like - don't do it.

If SOV is a cost then welcome back to high-sec. Leave 0.0 space to those who will love to mark that space by their name.

For me personally: SOV is a reward. This is mark: I OWN THE SPACE. THIS IS MY EMPIRE.

Outpost is like SOV but better: nothing can change the fact that you have BUILT it. I have one outpost i've built in 0.0. It's under some barbarians control but i don't care: i built it! And some time of its story it has had my name on it. This is REWARD.

You compare it to NPC station? Why? 0.0 is not empire. There was no outposts in 0.0 before players started to build. This is your station. You rule it. You don't care about ruling the space? What the hell you do in space MADE for it?

RubyPorto wrote:
PI: Sure. We'll give Nullsec PI. Well... except factory planets, which are HS or maybe LS.

there is 2 options:
- you have never did any PI
- everything has changed since September 2012

Because as far as i remember in high-sec you pay taxes (crazily big) and in 0.0 you have your own PoCo where you can tax other players. When i was building my outpost i used 0% of tax. It made me pay for 1 launch 0ISK, while with 2.5% i paid 5 million. In high-sec it was even more expensive (according to prices).

Add here better planets in 0.0 and ....

Yes, "marginally better"Roll

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-04-03 10:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
March rabbit wrote:
RL:- How many suicide gankers stopped their business because of CONCORD (read: in the fear of loosing this precious and f... expensive catalyst)? I'm pretty sure - not one.

Those who avoid ganking someone because of concord leave no evidence of this actually happening.

March rabbit wrote:
Because as far as i remember in high-sec you pay taxes (crazily big)

PI taxes aren't high.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2013-04-03 10:22:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
RL:- How many suicide gankers stopped their business because of CONCORD (read: in the fear of loosing this precious and f... expensive catalyst)? I'm pretty sure - not one.

Those who avoid ganking someone because of concord leave no evidence of this actually happening.

this works both ways: we have no evidences if bulletproof vest works or not.

Lord Zim wrote:

March rabbit wrote:
Because as far as i remember in high-sec you pay taxes (crazily big)

PI taxes aren't high.

then i guess: better planets + less taxes. Still something to be considered.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2013-04-03 10:25:41 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Because it has no relationship to how things really work. You can always make the most money in areas where there is the most stability. And when you think about it that makes sense. here is what doesn't.

The price of stability is a higher "price of admission". I could mine gold in the Congo or in Alaska. In the Congo there are less barriers to entry and lower overall costs, but significantly more risk. It is the first part that is missing in EvE hi sec, barriers to entry and higher overall costs.

Nothing is free in a "civilized" nation or space. Where are the mining permits and the subsequent outlaws that mine without a permit? Where are the taxes, beyond corporate taxes, for living in protected space? Docking permits, trade license, etc.

Beyond making the hi sec experience realistic it could add flavor to the game. Loose practices in some factions including corrupt officials or tight laws down to a specific permit required for each type of ore. All available at a local space station.

Risk versus reward is bozo. Lo sec is about freedom, hi sec is about sacrificing those freedoms for protection.


In a civilized nation, you can spend billions buying parks, sponsoring education for less fortunate, etc. Get drunk and hit someone in your car and you'll be crucified for it no matter how many people you've saved and improved the lives for.

As such, if EVE's environment were based upon civilized nations, you couldn't "rat your sec status back" after ganking someone and even in "the bad part of town" (lowsec), the cops would swing by on occasion looking to nail the criminals. Only nullsec - outside of *ALL* jurisdiction, would such "freedom" exist.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-04-03 10:25:55 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
this works both ways: we have no evidences if bulletproof vest works or not.

Take the vest off and see what happens, then.

March rabbit wrote:
then i guess: better planets + less taxes. Still something to be considered.

No. Get out.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-04-03 10:38:11 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
this works both ways: we have no evidences if bulletproof vest works or not.

Take the vest off and see what happens, then.

wake me up when you get some results.
before that moment any tales about vests are only tales


Lord Zim wrote:

March rabbit wrote:
then i guess: better planets + less taxes. Still something to be considered.

No. Get out.

greediness is good. I know where CCP got this idea Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-04-03 10:39:31 UTC
Remove concord from hisec, and you can have your "better planets + less taxes".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat