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Dev blog: Odyssey summer expansion: Starbase iterations

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Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc.
Illusion of Solitude
#181 - 2013-04-02 19:03:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If people are not willing to take the risk that their corp will move without them, they can always store certain items in the CHAs instead. Having tradeoffs and decisions to make between what to store in each of the two forms of storage is one of our goals.


To Hek with the people unwilling to take risk (hello? wormholes? pure risk?), but if you're looking for a reason to give CEO/director access to personal hangar, it's to prevent a situation where an average member can do something that a CEO/director can't. Stuff can be stolen from existing CHAs, yes, but anything that's anywhere in any POS module can be accessed by the CEO/directors. Making a POS module where a trolling thief can put other people's stuff (taken from CHA, lab, assembly array, whatever) and deny them access to it, and a CEO/director can't touch it either, would be a new vulnerability.

At that point, from the system you describe, the only way to even have a chance of getting that "stuff" back would be to offline the tower and blow up the personal hangar array and hope for the best. Ew.

Tshaowdyne Dvorak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2013-04-02 19:09:33 UTC
Kennesaw Breach wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]Making a POS module where a trolling thief can put other people's stuff (taken from CHA, lab, assembly array, whatever) and deny them access to it, and a CEO/director can't touch it either, would be a new vulnerability.


As opposed to just putting it in a carrier/Orca/freighter/hauler and logging off? This is no new threat to anyone. You could fly the stuff out to a customs office and dump it in there now if you wanted. With the new PHA, the CEO and Directors will be able to see what you have in it, so they can sanction you accordingly for thefts. If you want to profit from your spoils, you'll still have to drag it out of the wormhole in something that anyone in the corp can blow up.
Oreamnos Amric
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#183 - 2013-04-02 19:13:24 UTC
Tshaowdyne Dvorak wrote:
Kennesaw Breach wrote:
Making a POS module where a trolling thief can put other people's stuff (taken from CHA, lab, assembly array, whatever) and deny them access to it, and a CEO/director can't touch it either, would be a new vulnerability.


As opposed to just putting it in a carrier/Orca/freighter/hauler and logging off? This is no new threat to anyone. You could fly the stuff out to a customs office and dump it in there now if you wanted. With the new PHA, the CEO and Directors will be able to see what you have in it, so they can sanction you accordingly for thefts. If you want to profit from your spoils, you'll still have to drag it out of the wormhole in something that anyone in the corp can blow up.


Fair point but not everyone has an Orca alt or would be willing to commit an Orca to a wormhole they intend to rob. What Kennesaw is laying out is a way anyone could easily instigate asset deprivation.
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Empire of Arcadia
#184 - 2013-04-02 19:13:38 UTC
Hallemotherfuckinglujah.
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc.
Illusion of Solitude
#185 - 2013-04-02 19:14:29 UTC
Tshaowdyne Dvorak wrote:
Kennesaw Breach wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]Making a POS module where a trolling thief can put other people's stuff (taken from CHA, lab, assembly array, whatever) and deny them access to it, and a CEO/director can't touch it either, would be a new vulnerability.


As opposed to just putting it in a carrier/Orca/freighter/hauler and logging off? This is no new threat to anyone. You could fly the stuff out to a customs office and dump it in there now if you wanted. With the new PHA, the CEO and Directors will be able to see what you have in it, so they can sanction you accordingly for thefts. If you want to profit from your spoils, you'll still have to drag it out of the wormhole in something that anyone in the corp can blow up.


True that there's no new threat, merely an extension and convenience factor to an existing one. I just don't like the idea of there being something in a POS I manage that I can't manage.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#186 - 2013-04-02 19:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: DJ P0N-3
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If people are not willing to take the risk that their corp will move without them, they can always store certain items in the CHAs instead. Having tradeoffs and decisions to make between what to store in each of the two forms of storage is one of our goals.


That would be great if CHAs were a sane way to do personal item storage at all, ever. Right now it's cans or bust, and I could write you an essay about how using cans to organize your things in a CHA is a nightmare. Usually every tab is in use by the corp for sorting its own things, so no, those won't help you either. If we were just choosing between public storage and private storage, that would be fine. But you're asking us to choose between "finally I can store my own things in a simple, easy to access manner" and "my stuff can't be totally locked down utterly at this time for whatever reason so it's back to the old ways".

If you're really intent on keeping PHAs 100% secure and personal, are you at least considering another type of module with a lower tier of security but similar ways of dividing up items so we can have the best (and corp-thieving worst, should we choose to risk it) of both worlds?

And, to change the subject a little, will PHAs become inaccessible the same way CHAs do when the POS is reinforced?
Tshaowdyne Dvorak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2013-04-02 19:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tshaowdyne Dvorak
Oreamnos Amric wrote:
Fair point but not everyone has an Orca alt or would be willing to commit an Orca to a wormhole they intend to rob. What Kennesaw is laying out is a way anyone could easily instigate asset deprivation.


Again: move the crap to a customs office. They're just general storage floating in space that you can put anything you like into. Edited: This isn't true, as pointed out by Oreamnos Amric. Thanks for the correction, good sir. (Suggested that one can still use GSCs for asset denial).

Also, who needs to move an Orca or any such thing into a WH in order to rob them? You just train up your character(s) to be able to fly an Orca/all the freighters/carriers and you steal one of those too. Why go small in your theft when you can nab a 1.5 billion ISK freighter or even more disgustingly expensive carrier if that's what you're infiltrating a corp to do? Also, don't most people just strip every ship they can of valuable modules and self destruct all the ones they can't easily move for the insurance?

I'm no corp thief, but I can certainly think like one, and have read enough posts on heists committed in the past to get the gist of how those guys operate. It's called "casing the joint." In real life heists, people figure out what they can easily take with them and plan to do that quickly. Yes, the bank's whole safe did cost them a ton to have installed, but it also weighs several tons and is much harder to make off with than the contents of a specific few safety deposit boxes which may well contain bearer bonds or other valuable assets that are worth more than what's in the whole rest of the bank.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#188 - 2013-04-02 19:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Seleene wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Big thanks to everyone who has provided us with their Starbase change requests so far and special thanks to the CSM for being extremely helpful at getting your constructive requests to us.


FINALLY we can talk about this stuff we've been doing nothing about!!!!! Big smileCool

Still waiting on LEGOS in space, but this is a good start.

Yuppers. Cool

Over all, a good first slice at the problem. I find the DevBlog to be full of encouraging news.
Carry on smartly!


Edit:
Roles still need re-doing, to be sure, but this change as proposed is sensible and gives me a warm fuzzy that we're going to see continued effort down this path. Kindly don't disapoint us, please!
As you were.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Oreamnos Amric
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#189 - 2013-04-02 19:30:53 UTC
Tshaowdyne Dvorak wrote:

Again: move the crap to a customs office. They're just general storage floating in space that you can put anything you like into.


I'm not 100% on this, but I'm fairly certain POCOs will only hold PI materials.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#190 - 2013-04-02 19:32:24 UTC
Sedrie wrote:
If you were to hang out at your local supermarket, the guys buying bulk quantities of tissues are the wormhole residents after reading this update.

brb, I need to run to the store.

Nope. This is a first step on a lengthy process - It'll make life better for W-space residents such as myself, over all.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#191 - 2013-04-02 19:32:49 UTC
Two step wrote:
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
These changes are a good temporary measure to alleiviate some of the worst aspects of dealing with and living out of POS.

But they're not a substitute for a proper POS rework. Sooner or later that will have to be done.

Agreed, but "the perfect is the enemy of the good". CSM7 worked very hard to help CCP squeeze out the most bang-for-buck for the development resources available.

CSM8 will have to keep the pressure on to ensure that as CCP develops its longer-term plans, a revamp of starbases is in the roadmap.


These changes seem primarily focused on the WH usecase (not surprising given the CSM active member composition). I'm not saying they wont affect other POS users in a positive way as well, but the industrialist user might consider these changes pretty underwhelming.

Oh well, here is hoping for some clickfest reduction for Christmas.


I disagree. The access hangars from anywhere within the shields is *huge* for industrialists. I have an alt who does highsec POS stuff (was invention, now T2/T3 production) and that change alone will be very helpful.


When I said "primarily", this was the change I had in mind. And it IS a nice change to be sure (not huge but nice). Still, there is so many other aspects of industrial life that need attention that I still feel it is pretty underwhelming. It is a good improvement package for you WH guys though, and admittedly - you probably needed changes the most.
Tshaowdyne Dvorak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2013-04-02 19:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tshaowdyne Dvorak
Oreamnos Amric wrote:
Tshaowdyne Dvorak wrote:

Again: move the crap to a customs office. They're just general storage floating in space that you can put anything you like into.


I'm not 100% on this, but I'm fairly certain POCOs will only hold PI materials.


Verified. I was wrong about this and you are correct. I never did try until now. Still, GSCs anchored in a safe spot. Hard to track down (but not impossible) and can only be killed to be rid of. Nobody can get into them either. It only takes 10 of them to cover 40,000 m^3 storage space. I bet most corps have a stash of them available to everyone, so the thief doesn't even have to haul the damned things in. :P
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#193 - 2013-04-02 19:36:43 UTC
Camios wrote:
Ahem.
I'm sorry to break this lovely atmosphere of joy, but

ShockedREFINING ARRAYS STILL SUCK!Shocked

Can you please do something about it?
Or at least explain briefly the rationale behind them sucking so hard.
In my opinion losing 30% or so of what you mined does not make any sense.

I believe this is deliberate, and I think it's to force some W-Space dwellers out into K-Space every now and again.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#194 - 2013-04-02 19:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Psihius wrote:
Well, maybe CEO/Director should not be able to take stuff while character is in the corporation, but when he's out - access should be allowed.

Fair point. When someone is booted, you don't want to leave all their crud littering up the Corp spaces. And if you're kind-hearted enough to want to give them their crap back, well, it'd be nice to have some mechanism for that.

Also, in cases of emergency evacuation of a WH, it'd be nice to not have to destroy all the belongings of those folks not online at the moment.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#195 - 2013-04-02 19:42:43 UTC
My favorite part of the blog is where they are going to allow Capital Ship Maintenance Arrays in other places. Always annoyed me when we couldn't put them on our POS just because we didn't hold sovereignty out in 0.0. Would make things much more convenient and easier with them. Also, another good thing is accessing stuff from anywhere inside the POS shield. Was always a pain in the ass slow boating to the arrays in a cap ship to access the hangars and so on.
Bryg Philomena
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#196 - 2013-04-02 19:43:01 UTC
Quote:
If a member leaves the corp, his or her items are left in the structure but cannot be accessed unless the player rejoins.


This worries me. As there is no way to contract, sell, move, courier, or trash the items in question they are essentially lost to both the player and the corp.

Griefing would be way too easy. Kick a player out and they lose everything. Hell, I wouldn't mind so much if it got put into a deliveries hanger there so the directors can access it, move it, sell it, use it, whatever. But locking it down sounds like a bad idea, IMO.
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc.
Illusion of Solitude
#197 - 2013-04-02 19:44:26 UTC
Tshaowdyne Dvorak wrote:
Verified. I was wrong about this and you are correct. I never did try until now. Still, GSCs anchored in a safe spot. Hard to track down (but not impossible) and can only be killed to be rid of. Nobody can get into them either.


My point is that making it in the POS at the new personal hangar makes it trivial to deny access to resources. I know it's not a new threat, but the personal hangar array makes denial of access literally a drag and drop thing for the trolling thief, with no recourse from the POS managers. Philosophically, I don't like having a POS module with aspects that are off limits to the POS managers and POS owner.
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
#198 - 2013-04-02 19:44:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Thanks to new advances in starbase technology, tiny drones will now carry items to and fro within the shield bubble.


I'd love to see an animation for this, even if it's just the standard tractor beam. This wouldn't just be aesthetic, it could be useful to have a visual representation of activity. Seeing beams of light flickering across industrial starbases would be a helpful indicator for both corpmates and other, more nefarious observers. A constant beam from operator ship to POS module being used would be ideal.

At the very least it would highlight the difference between the AFK and the active. Plus the starbase and occupants would look more like an ongoing industrial concern rather than just stuff floating idly.
Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#199 - 2013-04-02 19:46:42 UTC
Im glad to see these changes finally arriving, and so soon at that. I get that not all of it will be able to go live by the 4th but It is a great start. Especially the edits to personal hangars and interbubble access which will make this soo much easier especially when youve got an orca full of ore to bring over to an assembly array moving at like 3m/s Lol.

Just on a side note for another change i might reccomend would be the refining arrays, I hate that you need to be in .3 or lower to use them its a terrible drag on time and efficency to have to go find an Empty .3 moon rather than the .4 you already have set up especially for people who cant enter high sec. It would be great if they could be anchored there and linked to either a silo or corp hangar as well to make it simpler on everyone who uses them.

Other than that looking foreward to the new expansion and what secrets it holds for us all haha

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#200 - 2013-04-02 19:48:29 UTC
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If people are not willing to take the risk that their corp will move without them, they can always store certain items in the CHAs instead. Having tradeoffs and decisions to make between what to store in each of the two forms of storage is one of our goals.


That would be great if CHAs were a sane way to do personal item storage at all, ever. Right now it's cans or bust, and I could write you an essay about how using cans to organize your things in a CHA is a nightmare.

My corp just has multiple CHAs. Each person has a specific tab in a specific array. To say we have a bit of a sprawl going on would be underselling it, and we have some people utilizing a few sections of the assembly arrays.

silens vesica wrote:
Camios wrote:
Ahem.
I'm sorry to break this lovely atmosphere of joy, but

ShockedREFINING ARRAYS STILL SUCK!Shocked

Can you please do something about it?
Or at least explain briefly the rationale behind them sucking so hard.
In my opinion losing 30% or so of what you mined does not make any sense.

I believe this is deliberate, and I think it's to force some W-Space dwellers out into K-Space every now and again.

Aside from the fact we still have to sell stuff to make any money?

Refining arrays suck just as much in a POS in the ass end of null.