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Why risk versus reward doesn't matter
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#21 - 2013-04-02 05:58:28 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
I'm sure this makes sense to you....

So you expect new players, who have no idea how the game really works, to organize and protect themselves against players with much greater SP, much deeper pockets, and greater numbers and organization? Roll

Did you even stop to consider anything, other than your own need to grief noobs?



Confirmed: There are nothing but newbies in HS.

I'm certainly not abusing the safety of HS to make hilarious quantities of ISK. Not. At. All.


Anyway, you were the one that claimed that Nullsec is safer. Doesn't it follow that you want HS to have the same safety that Nullsec has?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-04-02 06:04:42 UTC
since hisec is, according to hiseccers, for newbies and l4s and incursions aren't newbie-friendly, perhaps it's time for those things to go from hisec

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#23 - 2013-04-02 06:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Andski wrote:
since hisec is, according to hiseccers NULL Seccers, ONLY for newbies and l4s and incursions , perhaps it's time for those things to go from hisec

FIXED Roll
& posting in James315 CSM platform thread eventhough he's no longer running
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-04-02 06:17:37 UTC
Maybe you should fix things in ways that make grammatical sense.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-04-02 06:21:32 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Andski wrote:
imagine a space-themed amusement park and you have several rides

that's what eve is basically going towards


Themepark = catastrophe. EvE is dying. Everyone will quit and the game will end. Oh god!!! What will I do with all my free time? Oh god!!!


But it is the themepark that maybe attracting them.

I didn't know incursions existed upon returning, but after finding out, going to skill up to get in those fleets as a Logi (was in a corp that just as they moved their HQ to null, an incursion hit in the HQ system. They avoided the gate/zone yet it meant they were stuck for a week in null without resupply [they didn't have the ships and support to close it, and were being instapopped just trying to get past the gate]. Had PvPers enjoying industry for a while or no PvP). Pirate

Why the interest?

They're much like raids: FC (tank); Logi chains (healers); and assorted squads of DPS (melee/ranged/CCers).

That it also requires high skills and expensive ships it's tailored to players from MMOs that are used to hardcore raiding, too.

So CCP is slipping in such content that would appeal to that very themepark demographic.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-04-02 06:45:01 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Risk versus reward is bozo. Lo sec is about freedom, hi sec is about sacrificing those freedoms for protection.

... and here we have a problem: high-sec doesn't provide "protection". Your attacker will only meet CONCORD for a little slap in the face after he killed your ship. And insurance doesn't cover T2/faction/pirate ships and modules. All your losses are only your losses.

So nope. Adding some payments into high-sec won't make sense.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-04-02 06:48:26 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Players work to make Null stable. They build that Empire and make it safe. They are the Concord. That is why they deserve much better rewards.

they have it already.

next question?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#28 - 2013-04-02 07:28:03 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
March rabbit wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
Risk versus reward is bozo. Lo sec is about freedom, hi sec is about sacrificing those freedoms for protection.

... and here we have a problem: high-sec doesn't provide "protection". Your attacker will only meet CONCORD for a little slap in the face after he killed your ship. And insurance doesn't cover T2/faction/pirate ships and modules. All your losses are only your losses.

So nope. Adding some payments into high-sec won't make sense.


HS does indeed provide protection. The fact that your attacker will lose their ship prevents most attacks that would otherwise happen.

What it doesn't provide is "prevention."

March rabbit wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Players work to make Null stable. They build that Empire and make it safe. They are the Concord. That is why they deserve much better rewards.

they have it already.

next question?


They don't actually. At the very best it might be marginally better. And that's only for some activities.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#29 - 2013-04-02 10:53:25 UTC
Realism? We live in fluidic space, where ships suffer from drag, even the most basic Newtonian physics don't even apply, the law of conservation of energy isn't even a thing, targeting computers get weaker as ships get larger (yet their sensor strength goes up), and for some reason the most valuable ore belts are in areas that no NPC nation dares to try to make claim to... and you want realism?

Here is realism: Upon realizing that the Mercoxit was all in 0.0 space the nearest NPC Nation invades, takes over, moves in a bunch of military police and declares it a new 1.0 system. The Mercoxit flows, private companies get rich and the taxpayers foot the bill for the soldiers; See also "Gulf War 1 & 2" for more details on exactly how this works. That is realism. No nation would let a bunch of petty pirates and vagabonds get in the way of acquiring resources. If EvE was realistic then 1.0 would all be Mercoxit & Arkanor and nullsec would be nothing but Veldspar.

Not that the position of the belts would change, mind you, but the positions of the four nations would. They would simply move out to what is currently nullsec, take over, and leave the worthless center of the map to brigands and wannabe kingdoms. See also "gentrification."

Or how about ships actually start to lose functionality as they take damage? Or when you go to suicide gank in hisec your crew mutinies, yanks your out of your pod and throws you out the airlock? Seriously, if you were to stack all the unrealistic, unbelievable crap in the EvE Universe and stacked it up against all the same thing in Harry Potter ... guess who would win the believability contest?

So... one more unbelievable thing? That's not an outrage. That's a fart in a hurricane.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-04-02 11:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
RubyPorto wrote:
March rabbit wrote:

... and here we have a problem: high-sec doesn't provide "protection". Your attacker will only meet CONCORD for a little slap in the face after he killed your ship. And insurance doesn't cover T2/faction/pirate ships and modules. All your losses are only your losses.

So nope. Adding some payments into high-sec won't make sense.


HS does indeed provide protection. The fact that your attacker will lose their ship prevents most attacks that would otherwise happen.

What it doesn't provide is "prevention."

say it to miners who don't tank their hulks.
say it to freighter pilots who get ganked (and will be when Burn Jita NNN will come)
say it to pilots who get ganked "for fun"

yes, CONCORD removes some part of dangers but this is not "protection". This is more "limitation of dangers". It's like speed limit on roads: you still can lose your car on this road. However speed limitation makes is somehow rarer (but totally possible).

Technically protection = prevention of agression + compensation of loss.
High-sec does not provide prevention and does not provide compensation.
So nope, i can't agree that high-sec provides protection.

RubyPorto wrote:

March rabbit wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Players work to make Null stable. They build that Empire and make it safe. They are the Concord. That is why they deserve much better rewards.

they have it already.

next question?


They don't actually. At the very best it might be marginally better. And that's only for some activities.

Can't agree.
- NPC farming: better than missions + pirate spawns
- mining: (before the bots) better than in high-sec (ABC and all this stuff) + officer spawns
- exploration: better than in high-sec
- PvP: unlimited thus better
- SOV: not in high-sec
- player owned outposts: not in high-sec (don't forget about taxes for services)
- PI: better than in high-sec + POCOs (lett taxes for you + taxing other people into your wallet)
- ..?

And if we speak about "how better it is and how better it should be" then we need to use some numbers i guess. Without pure numbers this can't be discussed properly.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Dave Stark
#31 - 2013-04-02 11:20:26 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

Can't agree.
[snip]
- mining: (before the bots) better than in high-sec (ABC and all this stuff) + officer spawns
[snip]


this made me laugh so hard.

null sec mining isn't better than high sec mining by any stretch of the imagination. do the maths. scordite is worth more per m3 than even the most lucrative null sec grav site.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#32 - 2013-04-02 11:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Mining permits are already a thing, and have been for a while now, how did you miss the threadnaughts and whinefests about the New Order?

It's not up to CCP to increase the cost of entry, it's down to us, the players to put such things in place. It's already been done in nullsec, maybe it's time it came to highsec.


So we're going to spend extra resources and efforts on camping high sec just to increase the risk for veldspar mining which will in return increase the value of veldspar, increase the price of tritanium and everything made with it. And all just so that the people that then do manage to mine get richer?


Anything that adds more risk to high sec mining will lead to all of our stuff becoming more expensive so a hand full of miners get richer.


I don't care about high sec. I buy my stuff here, pack it up and ship it to null. Why should I spend more time in high sec to make my equipment cost more where I do need it?

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-04-02 11:28:58 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
March rabbit wrote:

Can't agree.
[snip]
- mining: (before the bots) better than in high-sec (ABC and all this stuff) + officer spawns
[snip]


this made me laugh so hard.

null sec mining isn't better than high sec mining by any stretch of the imagination. do the maths. scordite is worth more per m3 than even the most lucrative null sec grav site.




Are you mining scordite?

Why? -all you have to do is move to low and do low sec exploration to win billions. Every one should go to low sec, the rewards over there are exponential compared to high sec with minimal risk, no bubbles, no bombs...

Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Dave Stark
#34 - 2013-04-02 11:31:42 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
March rabbit wrote:

Can't agree.
[snip]
- mining: (before the bots) better than in high-sec (ABC and all this stuff) + officer spawns
[snip]


this made me laugh so hard.

null sec mining isn't better than high sec mining by any stretch of the imagination. do the maths. scordite is worth more per m3 than even the most lucrative null sec grav site.




Are you mining scordite?

Why? -all you have to do is move to low and do low sec exploration to win billions. Every one should go to low sec, the rewards over there are exponential compared to high sec with minimal risk, no bubbles, no bombs...

Lol


what i am or am not doing, is irrelevant.

the fact remains as i stated.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-04-02 11:33:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
March rabbit wrote:

Can't agree.
[snip]
- mining: (before the bots) better than in high-sec (ABC and all this stuff) + officer spawns
[snip]


this made me laugh so hard.

null sec mining isn't better than high sec mining by any stretch of the imagination. do the maths. scordite is worth more per m3 than even the most lucrative null sec grav site.

2 years ago i was mining in 0.0. made lots of money. No one even tried to speak "0.0 mining is bad" that days. What happened next?

Maybe ABC came to high-sec? Nope
Maybe megacyte, zydrin, etc... do not needed anymore? Nope

Market. Supply/demand. Reduce supply and you get it more lucrative.

BTW: what about officer/faction/transpost spawns? Do high-sec has better of it? Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#36 - 2013-04-02 11:33:38 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
-all you have to do is move to low and do low sec exploration to win billions.



I beg to differ.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-04-02 11:49:17 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
The risk is scripted here.

I just posted about having an interceptor like mining vessel (good for gas/moon/ore mining, with 100% yield and like a 5000m3 for any mat or refine) that can be used for ninja mining. The concept is good because it gets miners into the action (real miners not the AFK "I need to make some isk for my main to pewpewpew" types) with true risk vs rewards.

It's not done.


Venture?

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#38 - 2013-04-02 12:07:20 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
The risk is scripted here.

I just posted about having an interceptor like mining vessel (good for gas/moon/ore mining, with 100% yield and like a 5000m3 for any mat or refine) that can be used for ninja mining. The concept is good because it gets miners into the action (real miners not the AFK "I need to make some isk for my main to pewpewpew" types) with true risk vs rewards.

It's not done.


Venture?



Seriously. I wonder about that moon mining Interceptor though. Ugh Does OP think that ships mining moons is possible right now for some reason ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Dave Stark
#39 - 2013-04-02 12:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
March rabbit wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
March rabbit wrote:

Can't agree.
[snip]
- mining: (before the bots) better than in high-sec (ABC and all this stuff) + officer spawns
[snip]


this made me laugh so hard.

null sec mining isn't better than high sec mining by any stretch of the imagination. do the maths. scordite is worth more per m3 than even the most lucrative null sec grav site.

2 years ago i was mining in 0.0. made lots of money. No one even tried to speak "0.0 mining is bad" that days. What happened next?

Maybe ABC came to high-sec? Nope
Maybe megacyte, zydrin, etc... do not needed anymore? Nope

Market. Supply/demand. Reduce supply and you get it more lucrative.

BTW: what about officer/faction/transpost spawns? Do high-sec has better of it? Lol



what happened next? drone poop nerf, meta loot changes, etc. i love how people casually ignore these huge changes to mineral supply as if they didn't happen.
it wasn't the market at all, it was CCP ******* around with the game.

what about spawns so rare that it doesn't matter? (tip, it doesn't matter)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#40 - 2013-04-02 12:16:44 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

And as far as risk/reward goes, it's much safer in 0.0....So your premise fell apart when you didn't address that.Oops

Players work to make it stable. They build that Empire and make it safe. They are the Concord.

Hi-Sec could always turn off Concord and have the safety of Null brought right to them. It would be easier right Bob. Lol



I'm sure this makes sense to you....

So you expect new players, who have no idea how the game really works, to organize and protect themselves against players with much greater SP, much deeper pockets, and greater numbers and organization? Roll

Did you even stop to consider anything, other than your own need to grief noobs?


Most high sec players aren't new players, they are just old players hiding behind game mechaincs like CONCORD and NPC corps while they mine or autopilot freighters to greater and greater riches.