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[Odyssey] T1 Cruiser Polish Pass

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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#81 - 2013-03-29 02:09:33 UTC
Thank you - looks very thoughtfull and responsible
To mare
Advanced Technology
#82 - 2013-03-29 03:28:40 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Stabber:

High:
425mm AC II x 4
LML II x 2
Mid:
Experimental MWD
LSE II
Small Cap Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
Gyro II x 3
TE II
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 3

With a flight of warriors I would get between 419 and 496 DPS overheated- Barrage vs Faction ammo. The Stabber is going to be win sauce.


At what range exactly do you get that dps? 2k, that's what. How about at 20k after the TE nerf, answer is sweet f u ck all. The stabber simply isn't agile or fast enough to stop yourself getting caught by a thorax/vexor, and when you do you diaf, because your tickle like dps projection has left them with ample hp left.

Minmatar ships are no longer being given the agility to actually kite (you need agility as much as speed), combined with the TE nerf which will hit minmatar most of all, it's a nail in the coffin.


The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

496 DPS :
80 DPS from Drones. 37 DPS from light missiles with 43km range. 379 DPS from Faction Ammo. You do 60% of your DPS at 100% falloff - so 344 DPS at 23 km. (227 + 80 + 37)

Personally I would run with Barrage which would give you ~300 DPS at 35km.

The Stabber gains an additional 12.5% falloff even as the TE2 loses 10% - so it will be close to a wash with the ship.


You have no idea about how falloff work.
Yo will do sligtly less than 40% of your gun dps at 100% falloff so you might wanna adjust you numbers a bit.
Plus thats really a terrible fit.


Im totally happy with the cahnges to the stabber but there is no way its gonna be OP, omen its stil a way better gun kite ship and thorax/caracal for anything else, but at least now the stabber can have an use for ppl that can only fly minmatar
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-03-29 03:53:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vayn Baxtor
- Stabber -
I hate to actually see "yet more drones", but I guess it is the only solution. I guess we have to live with the fact that drones are the only way to get at least some work done.

The good news though is that it can do much more of an anti-frigate role provided the frigates can be caught.

I'd still be for actually giving Stabber less HP and therefore more agility and speed, but I'll just take it as it is.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#84 - 2013-03-29 12:09:55 UTC
Quote:
Scythe:
Role bonuses: +1000% to shield transfer and +100% drone repair amount


Are you sure you didn't mean +1000% to shield transfer range? Blink
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#85 - 2013-03-29 17:58:30 UTC
t1 cruisers were working just fine. don't buff the winmatar for the love of god just because the vast majority of eve pilots fly winmatar.
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#86 - 2013-03-29 20:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Havegun Willtravel
Hi Fozzie,

Thanks again to you and your team for the cruiser rebalancing. With the Stabber and Omen tweaks the whole group are a ton of fun to fly now.

Personaly I feel that the T1 logi's probably deserve their own thread as they are very distinct in their appication compared to the other ships in their class. , but I'll just toss my opinions here in the meantime.



There is no doubt that the logi cruiser buff has been a total success. It used to be rare to see any of them fielded. Today however that's far from the case.

That said, I feel they need a bit more work than you're suggesting at the moment.

Exequor - The main armor logi you'll see fielded for small gangs that only bring one. Works great, but it's weak compared to the Aug due to the drone bay. Without EW Drone Interfacing 5 you have to get 8-10 k closer than the Auguror to get the full potential of the ship to work. Combined with the Augurors cap trans bonus which lets is perma run 3 remote reps, the exeq starts to fall to a distant second place in alot of scenarios. Leave the pg and cpu alone and just add a high. People can adjust their current fits to work in a Drone Link Augmentor to even things out.



Scythe vs Osprey : Scythe is faster but that's it. Once again the drone bay hampers the full potential to apply reps. The Osprey can rep +10k past what the scythe's max drone range is. Worse is that the Osprey has a ton more pg and cpu to play with.
For a fast roaming gang with just 1 logi, the Scythe might be fine. For EVERYTING else there's just no real choice, Osprey wins hands down.


Sheild vs Armor : No question what so ever. Sheild. Waste of time to try and build a viable 90k armor rep ship.


Overall the best way i can see to balance them is to cut the range bonus down to 600 or 700 % ( @ 50 km ). Presently most logi will sit at 60+ which places them out of range of all but the longest range weapons. A roaming gang that's AC, Blaster, or HAM fit just doesn't have many options to neutralize the opposing sides logi, chances are even their drones don't have the range to touch them. This isn't realy balance. It's whoever sets up first wins. With a max rep range of 50 k logi wouldn't be so immune. You would have to stay awake to incoming drones and use your own to defend yourself and still follow the action to apply reps. At the same time an overall 50k range would negate the imbalance between the Scythe/Exeq vs the Aug/Osprey.

Thanks for reading and looking forward to your updates.

P.S. Props for tripple boxing Moros's at the Luminaire event.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#87 - 2013-03-30 22:14:08 UTC
rupture needs more powergrid.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#88 - 2013-03-31 08:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
rupture needs more powergrid.


wat

Oh yeah, it totally does, dual 1600 plate rupture is too hard to fit
To mare
Advanced Technology
#89 - 2013-04-01 05:26:37 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
rupture needs more powergrid.

rupture need an extra gun, same fittings.

the tank would still be bad but at least it would have a purpose as a damage platform
Randy Wray
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-04-01 14:57:49 UTC
To mare wrote:
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
rupture needs more powergrid.

rupture need an extra gun, same fittings.

the tank would still be bad but at least it would have a purpose as a damage platform

Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#91 - 2013-04-01 16:07:58 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
To mare wrote:
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
rupture needs more powergrid.

rupture need an extra gun, same fittings.

the tank would still be bad but at least it would have a purpose as a damage platform

Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad.

I must've been thinking wrong then... for some reason I remember having fitting problems Shocked
meh, ignore that post... Ugh
To mare
Advanced Technology
#92 - 2013-04-01 19:21:28 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
To mare wrote:
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
rupture needs more powergrid.

rupture need an extra gun, same fittings.

the tank would still be bad but at least it would have a purpose as a damage platform

Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad.


Now compare that to a maller/moa/vexor
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#93 - 2013-04-01 20:40:00 UTC
To mare wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:

Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad.


Now compare that to a maller/moa/vexor

This will be my baseline Rupture:
[Rupture, test]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II

10MN Afterburner II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x5
Warrior II x1




Lets see. First off lets get the Moa out of the way. Moa's shield, ruppies armour. Difficult comparison there to begin with.

Neutron AB Moa.
[Moa, fleet]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
10MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x3


Moa has less tank by 7k EHP. Rupture's off to a good start. It also has similar utility, but lacks a neut. It also has a smaller base HP buffer. In exchange it gets more damage projection in close range. Damage levels out at 15km range with close range ammo, 25km with barrage/null.

So I see more damage, less tank, slightly faster... but doesn't have the MWD that the Rupture does.

Ion/MWD Moa, dropped the web for another LSE
[Moa, fleet]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x3

Alright. So now it gets a MWD, making it slightly faster than the Rupture. It also gets 8k more EHP. But it lost its web. Won't be holding anybody down this time. It also doesn't have an AB, so it gets stopped by a scram. Damage with close range guns levels out at 8km, long range ammo at 15km. Trades utility and projection for close range damage and tank.


Overall, I'd say the comparison between the Moa and Rupture is that you have to trade one thing for another. Also, ones shield and one's armour (I'm not going to even bother try and compare an armour Moa).

Now for the Maller.
Not going to bother with fits for this one. It comes down to: more damage, more projection, more tank. But, in exchange for less utility, less cap life, worse tracking, slower. I'll give the advantage here to the Maller for fleets, but it's weaker in smaller gangs where every bit of utility counts, and you won't always have someone else to top up your cap.


As for the Vexor? I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure the Vexor won't get much more tank than the Rupture using a similar fit, and is countered by smartbombs, in exchange for better projection and similar if not more utility. Again, I'll give the advantage to the Vexor, but there are still uses for the Rupture.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#94 - 2013-04-01 23:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Feldman
This thread is confusing and hilarious. T1 Logi is hilariously beatable on many fronts. Whether or not it truly needs a nerf is a question unto it's own, but everything i've read here suggests that you guys need to fly cruiser gangs and get better at disrupting logi chains.

When Retribution first dropped, there was an over an hr long 50-man fight we had. I for one was afraid that this would become the norm and that the Aug was indeed OP. Then we kept flying them as much as we could against anything that would be a decent fight and taking experience from our losses as well as our wins we started making some tweaks and changes to how we flew our fleets.

It's extremely difficult to judge just how effective your disruption efforts are on logi. Good ewar is something you don't always realize when its there, but you definitely notice when its not. With that being said, all i'm going to say is that more people need to pay attention to damage projection and skill of their ewar pilots. T1 logi reps a suprisingly low amount and isn't difficult to break. Most of the fights we've had, probably a third of our logi is either damped or jammed by EC- drones, but we still usually pull through. Likewise, a well trained Celestis pilot with all the secondary supports and Gal Cruiser V versus having someone who can get into a Celestis is the difference between winning a fight and being completely useless.

Personally, I think that T1 logi is already quite distinguished from it's T2 counterparts, mainly in how much it's able to rep. For example, an Augoror reps 60% as much as a Guardian does. While I personally think that at least the scan res and lock range nerfs might be a bit much in the context of many of the Cruiser fights we've had, at least it will make beating people who rely on logi easier as well.

EDIT: I do caution though, the upcoming booster nerf combined with the logi changes might end up being too big of a hit to their effectiveness.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-04-03 08:22:56 UTC
I didn't see anyone bring it up so it may just be a concern with me., but I'll throw it out there anyways. I believe the caracal should not have its ship bonus' applied to rapid light missile launchers.

As much as I find it a lot of fun to fly a frig-killing machine (and trust me when I say this, I've been that guy), but I don't feel the Caracal should excell at this role. As it stands now, you are hard pressed to find a HML or HAM caracal solo/fleet flying around. Instead, you find Carcals picking on frigs and destroyers and blatantly running from cruisers Shocked

There are plenty of modules that aren't bonused on ship hulls, and the RLM's should be added to that list. Even if they're not ship bonused, RLM Caracals would still be viable and allow it to continue to be a frig killer, but just a reduced effectiveness. This would also shake uip the meta and add a lot of variety in which kind of caracal you'll see as people would actually attempt a HML or HAM fit and see that it's effective.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-04-03 10:40:27 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
I didn't see anyone bring it up so it may just be a concern with me., but I'll throw it out there anyways. I believe the caracal should not have its ship bonus' applied to rapid light missile launchers.

As much as I find it a lot of fun to fly a frig-killing machine (and trust me when I say this, I've been that guy), but I don't feel the Caracal should excell at this role. As it stands now, you are hard pressed to find a HML or HAM caracal solo/fleet flying around. Instead, you find Carcals picking on frigs and destroyers and blatantly running from cruisers Shocked

There are plenty of modules that aren't bonused on ship hulls, and the RLM's should be added to that list. Even if they're not ship bonused, RLM Caracals would still be viable and allow it to continue to be a frig killer, but just a reduced effectiveness. This would also shake uip the meta and add a lot of variety in which kind of caracal you'll see as people would actually attempt a HML or HAM fit and see that it's effective.



Well SOME cruisers must be better against frigates, and some against larger ships. Blasters tend to be superior against larger ships ... why not the caracal for anti frig role?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Severice
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-04-03 11:09:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
mynnna wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We are also giving some moderate improvements to the two lowest performing attack cruisers, the Stabber and Omen.


Those look like some decidedly potent changes. But I'm more interested in the bolded - I'm curious how you're coming up with the "lowest performing"?


Couple of ways. The more subjective judgement from flying with them and watching for them on TQ (and following feedback in multiple places) plays a part, but objectively I can say for instance that the number of people getting on killmails with Omens and Stabbers on a daily basis is clustered quite significantly lower than Caracals and Thorax.


I'm sure this has nothing to do with the SFI being so damn popular that who would fly a stabber?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#98 - 2013-04-03 11:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
To mare wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
To mare wrote:
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
rupture needs more powergrid.

rupture need an extra gun, same fittings.

the tank would still be bad but at least it would have a purpose as a damage platform

Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad.


Now compare that to a maller/moa/vexor


Maller caps out before it can kill a rupture if it doesn't have a cap booster and can't track it properly if it does. And it can just scramkite the moa.

Severice wrote:

I'm sure this has nothing to do with the SFI being so damn popular that who would fly a stabber?

Stabber and SFI have two completely different roles so what one does well should have no effect on the other.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-04-03 22:18:13 UTC
Slightly off-topic, but this has been bothering me for months:

Why does the Augoror have two utility mids, and the Osprey two utility lows, when their T2 counterparts have only one utility slot each?

On the whole the support cruisers are very nicely balanced, and are sufficiently effective to be welcome in fleets alongside T2 Logistics, without eclipsing T2 Logistics entirely. All support cruiser pilots are very much encouraged to skill up for the T2 Logistics, since they have almost twice as much EHP and substantially superior resistances, and about 40% better repair output.

I will note that the Scythe treads a bit more on the Scimitar's position than do the other support cruisers on their T2 counterparts. Shield logistics usually rely on kiting hostile fire to stay alive, where the Scimitar's superior resistance profile and tank are not as significant. The Basilisk is less popular in shield fleets largely because it's obscenely slow relative to other logistics, and so is less effective at kiting, but does not have the armor logistics' superior tank and so is not as effective at brawling, while suffering from shield tank sig radius bloom. Granted, the Basilisk's bad rep is mostly undeserved -- when flown properly it can be superior to a Scimitar, but something to keep in mind.

The difference in cost between T1 and T2 support cruisers is not as high as some may think, unless we compare faction-fit T2 Logistics with T2-fit support cruisers. A properly-outfitted Augoror runs about 50M ISK at today's prices, a T2-fit Guardian runs somewhere around 200M ISK.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#100 - 2013-04-03 23:00:13 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:
Slightly off-topic, but this has been bothering me for months:

Why does the Augoror have two utility mids, and the Osprey two utility lows, when their T2 counterparts have only one utility slot each?

On the whole the support cruisers are very nicely balanced, and are sufficiently effective to be welcome in fleets alongside T2 Logistics, without eclipsing T2 Logistics entirely. All support cruiser pilots are very much encouraged to skill up for the T2 Logistics, since they have almost twice as much EHP and substantially superior resistances, and about 40% better repair output.

I will note that the Scythe treads a bit more on the Scimitar's position than do the other support cruisers on their T2 counterparts. Shield logistics usually rely on kiting hostile fire to stay alive, where the Scimitar's superior resistance profile and tank are not as significant. The Basilisk is less popular in shield fleets largely because it's obscenely slow relative to other logistics, and so is less effective at kiting, but does not have the armor logistics' superior tank and so is not as effective at brawling, while suffering from shield tank sig radius bloom. Granted, the Basilisk's bad rep is mostly undeserved -- when flown properly it can be superior to a Scimitar, but something to keep in mind.

The difference in cost between T1 and T2 support cruisers is not as high as some may think, unless we compare faction-fit T2 Logistics with T2-fit support cruisers. A properly-outfitted Augoror runs about 50M ISK at today's prices, a T2-fit Guardian runs somewhere around 200M ISK.


I'm guessing t1 is supposed to be less focused.

I do hope you're not suggesting t2 logistics are underpowered.. because you would be very wrong.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish