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Clone prices
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PhantomTrojan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2013-03-27 05:01:09 UTC
just add a extra ship specific clone that covers the amount of sp used by the ship, if you fly a frigate that uses 10 of your sp then buy and fit to that ship insurance only that specific clone, while having the normal expensive clone. Similarly if you fly a capital ship that uses 70m of your sp then pay for that specific clone of 70m or stick with the regular one of 70m.

Adding a extra clone that fits in the ship and protects you after the ship is lost for 1 hour, after that our the regular clone kicks in, this will create a new isk sink and will help most vets that like pvp. I myself dont like to use frigates because it is not worth it to risk a clone this expensive while having the firepower of a frigate.
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-03-27 09:31:11 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.



+++ its time to go
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#123 - 2013-03-27 16:33:20 UTC
Recoil IV wrote:
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.



+++ its time to go


At first I totally agree with this... but clone upgrades serve one MAJOR purpose.... to inhibit death cloning...

You can't remove clone upgrade costs without putting some other limit on death cloning...
Andrea Griffin
#124 - 2013-03-27 17:38:22 UTC
I love to fly frigates and I have a character with 50 million skill points. I'm also a casual player. I have been completely priced out of flying around nullsec because it is prohibitively expensive for someone who only plays 5-10 hours a week to constantly replace a clone of that grade.

It's a bad mechanic. I wouldn't mind at all if it was a one-time cost, however.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2013-03-29 03:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sphit Ker
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Recoil IV wrote:
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.



+++ its time to go


At first I totally agree with this... but clone upgrades serve one MAJOR purpose.... to inhibit death cloning...

You can't remove clone upgrade costs without putting some other limit on death cloning...



The only time I do that is to move my cyno guys around and they are all alpha clones. The perceived problem of death cloning everywhere for total power projection is largely exaggerated. It's useless to death clone if you don't also have the ship you need over there. A civilian miner and a railgun won't do much for you. eh? Those who do have tons of ships everywhere did put much time, effort, and ISK into it. They can have a slice of cake, no?

The real crux of the issue here is the cost of clones. The upcoming skill tree changes will push this guy into the 20 millions ISK per death. Why should I be penalized that much for being "old"? There is only so many skillpoints that can affect a given ship in space anyway...

It knows what you think.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2013-03-29 22:15:09 UTC
Safety bump. Shouldn't be forgotten.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#127 - 2013-03-29 22:59:54 UTC


Currently the clone costs make little sense to me. The brain should be able to hold that knowledge anyway. But I acknowledge that they add a sense of risk.


Therefore I propose making the Clone cost depend on the number of implants the clone can implant. Fluff-wise its perfectly understandable that preparing room for implants and inserting implants gets progressively harder the more implants need to be inserted. So if a person want to learn faster or preform better by means of implants, the more money they will risk.
paritybit
Stimulus
#128 - 2013-03-29 23:23:36 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

At first I totally agree with this... but clone upgrades serve one MAJOR purpose.... to inhibit death cloning...

You can't remove clone upgrade costs without putting some other limit on death cloning...


This could be solved very simply by not only allowing a medical clone to be created at a station you are currently in. Then you can "project" to a desired location only once, and only after you'd been there.
Garuda Nil
Hotbirds
#129 - 2013-03-29 23:30:46 UTC
Once Odyssey is deplyed I will suddenly have 5 or 6 mil SP more.
None of which will improve my performances by one single bit.

What part of my PvP activity will benefit from the extra SP I will be paying for?

Alt posting because MUH FREEDOMS!
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2013-03-30 09:09:47 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Recoil IV wrote:
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.



+++ its time to go


At first I totally agree with this... but clone upgrades serve one MAJOR purpose.... to inhibit death cloning...

You can't remove clone upgrade costs without putting some other limit on death cloning...



The only time I do that is to move my cyno guys around and they are all alpha clones. The perceived problem of death cloning everywhere for total power projection is largely exaggerated. It's useless to death clone if you don't also have the ship you need over there. A civilian miner and a railgun won't do much for you. eh? Those who do have tons of ships everywhere did put much time, effort, and ISK into it. They can have a slice of cake, no?

The real crux of the issue here is the cost of clones. The upcoming skill tree changes will push this guy into the 20 millions ISK per death. Why should I be penalized that much for being "old"? There is only so many skillpoints that can affect a given ship in space anyway...


Agreed ...
Praia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#131 - 2013-04-01 06:43:41 UTC
The clone system, for pvpers its a unfair TAX. More years we stay in eve doing pvp, more we pay.

Now my main have +156M sp's. I have to pay 65 Million isk each clone, more expensive than a lot of ships.

After the summer Skill Points boost, dont know.. Some day the little pod will be more expensive than most T2 ships
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-04-01 08:32:51 UTC
I've still not seen a compelling argument for keeping them.

*Risk - ships/modules are already risked.
*Implants - risked too. Someone will doubtless point out that you dont need to have them and that is correct - you do not. But by not having them, you pay a [different] price for that luxury.

A common debate is that it is a necessary isk sink, yet at the same time, it is widely accepted that it is optional (by means of just not using the clone/using alts). It's not a particularly effective sink if people are "opting out" of paying it.

So, again, what benefit does this feature bring the players?
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#133 - 2013-04-01 11:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

So, again, what benefit does this feature bring the players?


Well again then; it is a balance and a risk and a weakness that can be exploited. All Characters have them in one form or another. This is one that escalates as characters get more powerful, which is something that you don't see a lot of, but it is a balance none the less.

Examples from other games include the weight of money in EQ, it used to be the case that you had to account for the encumbrance of coins on your character and if you had a lot of money it would slow you down.

In P&P games characters would often gain followers, these NPC's added versatility and power to the characters but at the same time came with responsibilities and cost.

In poker the wagers tend to get steeper and more aggressive during mid to late game to force the weaker players from the table.

Increasing clone costs are the same sort of mechanic, they help maintain balance and create an atmosphere of increased risk appropriate for those characters who have made it to the higher levels of play.
Jack AmarrX
Doomheim
#134 - 2013-04-01 13:04:34 UTC
Perhaps replacing clones with a form of health insurance? You pay a lump sum every month like ship insurance, and the price of that lump sum depends on your sp, but it saves all your sp and you can lose your clone as much as you like as your insurance covers the clone costs and sorts that all out for you automatically for a month. Perhaps you can pay an even bigger premium for insuring your implants.

This could work alongside the current system, so players who don't pvp can go for the cheaper option of buying their clones themselves, and the pvpers who get podded regularly can pay a little more than a one off clone, but far less than they would spend on clones on a month for a months health insurance that becomes greater value for money the more you are podded.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#135 - 2013-04-01 13:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
I think the main problem with clone prices is in decrease of Sp/Isk rate after each upgrade:
Beta: costs 40k ISK and holds 1.38mil SP (34.5 sp per isk)
Gamma: costs 65k ISK and holds 2.05mil SP (31.53 sp per isk)
..................
Mu: costs 1.38mil ISK and holds 20mil SP (14.92 sp per isk)
Nu: costs 1.98mil ISK and holds 25.6mil SP (12.93 sp per isk)
..................
Tau: costs 30mil ISK and holds 120mil SP (4 sp per isk)
Upsilon: costs 45mil ISK and holds 156mil SP (3.46 sp per isk)
..................
Omega: costs 150mil ISK and holds 450mil SP (3 sp per isk)

^ Only penalizes vet players for no reason at all.

If CCP were to keep SP/ISK ratio of clones at least 30 then prices for clones should be:
Mu: 666.666isk
Nu: 853.333isk
..........................
Tau: 4mil
Upsilon: 5.2mil
..........................
Omega: 15mil

^ Even vet players can enjoy frig battles. At 15 SP/ISK ratio prices are still acceptable imo.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
0racle
Galactic Rangers
#136 - 2013-04-01 16:47:02 UTC
Yolo wrote:
Ok here is the deal, I'll break it down so any f*****g idiot can understand it.

There are 22 different clones, displaying sp/isk and total cost.
The clone grade Omega protects 3 sp per Isk. Clone cost 150 000 000
The clone grade Psi protects 2,86 sp per Isk. Clone cost 120 000 000
The clone grade Chi protects 2,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 90 000 000
The clone grade Phi protects 3,12 sp per Isk. Clone cost 65 000 000
The clone grade Upsilon protects 3,47 sp per Isk. Clone cost 45 000 000
The clone grade Tau protects 4 sp per Isk. Clone cost 30 000 000
The clone grade Sigma protects 4,63 sp per Isk. Clone cost 20 000 000
The clone grade Rho protects 5,46 sp per Isk. Clone cost 13 000 000
The clone grade Pi protects 7 sp per Isk. Clone cost 7 800 000
The clone grade Omicron protects 8,98 sp per Isk. Clone cost 4 700 000
The clone grade Xi protects 10,97 sp per Isk. Clone cost 2 990 000
The clone grade Nu protects 12,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 1 980 000
The clone grade Mu protects 14,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 1 340 000
The clone grade Lambda protects 16,88 sp per Isk. Clone cost 930 000
The clone grade Kappa protects 19,08 sp per Isk. Clone cost 650 000
The clone grade Iota protects 20,85 sp per Isk. Clone cost 470 000
The clone grade Theta protects 23,13 sp per Isk. Clone cost 335 000
The clone grade Eta protects 24,4 sp per Isk. Clone cost 250 000
The clone grade Zeta protects 26,67 sp per Isk. Clone cost 180 000
The clone grade Epsilon protects 28,85 sp per Isk. Clone cost 130 000
The clone grade Delta protects 29,47 sp per Isk. Clone cost 95 000
The clone grade Gamma protects 31,54 sp per Isk. Clone cost 65 000

So if we would FOR EXAMPLE give cheaper clones to newbies (as is today) and then use a balanced ratio of the Iota SP/Isk ratio. Eg; price increases SP/Isk untill you reach Iota, where it will settle and remain 20.85 SP / Isk thru out the rest of the board.

The prices for clones would then be something like this. Keeping current for lowbie clones and then using 20.85 SP / Isk from Iota clone and up.
65000 for the Gamma clone.
95 000 for the Delta clone.
130 000 for the Epsilon clone.
180 000 for the Zeta clone.
250 000 for the Eta clone.
335 000 for the Theta clone.
470 000 for the Iota clone.
595 000 for the Kappa clone.
753 000 for the Lambda clone.
959 000 for the Mu clone.
1 228 000 for the Nu clone.
1 573 000 for the Xi clone.
2 024 000 for the Omicron clone.
2 619 000 for the Pi clone.
3 405 000 for the Rho clone.
4 436 000 for the Sigma clone.
5 755 000 for the Tau clone.
7 482 000 for the Upsilon clone.
9 736 000 for the Phi clone.
12 662 000 for the Chi clone.
16 475 000 for the Psi clone.
21 583 000 for the Omega clone.

Current pricing model is not a Risk vs Reward situation, because the increased price per level is nothing but a penalty.

Look at it from another perspective if we bring all the clones in line with the 3SP / Isk ratio that CCP seems to let the clones land on in the end, it would show a pricing range of something liket this:

Displaying price at 3SP / Isk.
683 000 for the Gamma clone.
933 000 for the Delta clone.
1 250 000 for the Epsilon clone.
1 600 000 for the Zeta clone.
2 033 000 for the Eta clone.
2 583 000 for the Theta clone.
3 267 000 for the Iota clone.
4 133 000 for the Kappa clone.
5 233 000 for the Lambda clone.
6 667 000 for the Mu clone.
8 533 000 for the Nu clone.
10 933 000 for the Xi clone.
14 067 000 for the Omicron clone.
18 200 000 for the Pi clone.
23 667 000 for the Rho clone.
30 833 000 for the Sigma clone.
40 000 000 for the Tau clone.
52 000 000 for the Upsilon clone.
67 667 000 for the Phi clone.
88 000 000 for the Chi clone.
114 500 000 for the Psi clone.
150 000 000 for the Omega clone.

We want things brought in line, pref also reduced compared todays pricing model because todays model is a penalty against experienced players. This is a move towards small ship combat and away from the capital fights of today.

The risk involved in combat should be Ships, Equipment, Implants, Boosters. This grants a reward to the pilot.
The risk involved in Skillpoints is the time invested in the game. This grants a reward to the pilot.


Totally agree with this.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#137 - 2013-04-01 18:46:33 UTC
That space poor people make me laugh.
Плохому танцору яйца мешают.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2013-04-01 19:36:18 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Examples from other games include the weight of money in EQ, it used to be the case that you had to account for the encumbrance of coins on your character and if you had a lot of money it would slow you down.


Weight of money in EQ was mostly silly. The only effect it had in game was you would throw all your money in the bank, and after grinding monsters for 4 hours you would toss your copper on the ground. It did set up the big noob trap situation where someone would turn a plat or two into copper coins and toss it on the ground on the PvP servers. If noob walked along and picked it up they wouldn't be able to move and it would be ganksville. Kind of entertaining to watch once, but hardly engaging PvP.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Increasing clone costs are the same sort of mechanic, they help maintain balance and create an atmosphere of increased risk appropriate for those characters who have made it to the higher levels of play.


Except they're not. I would venture to guess that most high SP toons have been turned into research and industry alts or cap pilots, and are rarely risked in combat. I would also venture to guess that most players have combat alts that run around and have highly tuned SP counts to maximize combat skills so they can keep clone costs down.

So they player behind the controls is the same (same skill level), the combat alt has access to the funds of the main, the combat alt has streamlined training to remove all unnecessary non-combat skills, but for some reason the alt avoids the punitive clone costs. This is my issue with clone costs, it's just just a punishment for players who don't want to play an army of tuned alts instead of having their "one and only main."
Ervi
October Rain
#139 - 2013-04-01 21:05:18 UTC
Yolo wrote:

The risk involved in combat should be Ships, Equipment, Implants, Boosters. This grants a reward to the pilot.
The risk involved in Skillpoints is the time invested in the game. This grants a reward to the pilot.


This
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-04-06 09:05:52 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
That space poor people make me laugh.
Плохому танцору яйца мешают.



Stupid people also make me laugh but we cant be perfect now can´t we?