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So why does the refining array suck so bad anyhow?
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Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#1 - 2011-09-06 23:19:08 UTC
I just don't get it. All of the other pos modules seem to give some sort of advantage or incentive for their use. Faster research etc.

You still need your refining skills, and while you don't have usage and other taxes like you have at an npc station, you have fuel costs. Add to that the lack of instant refining and it seems they could at least remove the 75% cap and not unbalance anything.

I have done some searching but never really found anything that might explain the reasons behind the design of the refining array.
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#2 - 2011-09-07 05:16:17 UTC
Probably because convenience is costly.

You can either use a Rorq to compress your ore, and truck it to a real station...

Or you can refine on site, getting to the minerals right away.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2011-09-07 06:57:50 UTC
I'll add that a Rorqual can haul more ore than a jumpfreighter because of its huge 250,000 m³ ore hold.

Also keep in mind that refining arrays were introduced a very long time ago. Like most POS related things, they are in dire need of an overhaul.
Braondra
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2011-09-07 09:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Braondra
Been mining out in null a while now, i must say i have never used that piece of junk. Its not worth it with perfect refine in high sec and a Rorqual to move my ore in. I can fit upwards of 8m m3 of ore in my Rorqual in one haul. Then highsec refine. If youre building in null, then at least you can move it to a station system easier with it compressed, even for only one cyno. I think its worth it.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-09-07 12:26:48 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
Probably because convenience is costly.

You can either use a Rorq to compress your ore, and truck it to a real station...

Or you can refine on site, getting to the minerals right away.



If that's the reason, it should take a lot less time, given that station refining is instant.

Still, truly maxed skills should increase the refine yield at a PoS more, maybe it's something they'll look into for the null sec development they've been talking about.
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2011-09-07 12:36:43 UTC
Stupid forums ate my reply....

Anyhow thanks

I was mostly hoping to find out if any of the more veteran players knew of a reason the refining mod was created so gimped, or maybe it was created on par with stations, but then stations were buffed? I dunno, I haven't been around that long.

As for the Rorqual, they would be nice except

1. I don't have any toons that can fly one.
2. I don't have any toons that can build one.
3. I am currently operating out of a C1 so I'd have to build one inside and it could never leave.
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#7 - 2011-09-07 12:39:34 UTC  |  Edited by: VaMei
Tau Cabalander wrote:
keep in mind that refining arrays were introduced a very long time ago. Like most POS related things, they are in dire need of an overhaul.


This.

Before refining arrays were introduced, deep 0.0 mining ops needed more haulers than miners. Refining stations were many systems away from belts with ABCM. There were no outposts, ore compression, jump ships, capital industrial ships, freighters, blockade runners or cargo rigs, and T2 cargo expanders were few and far between. You would have a continuous stream of haulers running back and forth from your belts to the nearest station. Those haulers painted a nice bright line on the map that would have hungry pirates coming out of the woodwork; meaning you also needed a good number of pilots running security.

With a POS and a refining array, you could greatly cut down on the number of haulers you needed and put them in mining ships. You could also get rid of the continuous train to and from the local station, and haul your refined mins in a single convoy, reducing your security requirements.

The loss of refining efficiency was well worth it.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-07 14:52:17 UTC
VaMei wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
keep in mind that refining arrays were introduced a very long time ago. Like most POS related things, they are in dire need of an overhaul.


This.

Before refining arrays were introduced, deep 0.0 mining ops needed more haulers than miners. Refining stations were many systems away from belts with ABCM. There were no outposts, ore compression, jump ships, capital industrial ships, freighters, blockade runners or cargo rigs, and T2 cargo expanders were few and far between. You would have a continuous stream of haulers running back and forth from your belts to the nearest station. Those haulers painted a nice bright line on the map that would have hungry pirates coming out of the woodwork; meaning you also needed a good number of pilots running security.

With a POS and a refining array, you could greatly cut down on the number of haulers you needed and put them in mining ships. You could also get rid of the continuous train to and from the local station, and haul your refined mins in a single convoy, reducing your security requirements.

The loss of refining efficiency was well worth it.


QFT.

The most important thing to remember is that, IIRC, stations DID NOT EXIST in null sec, except for NPC null sec. In order to refine at a station, you had to haul the ore all the way to an Empire station. Refining arrays were introduced to allow miners to refine their ore on site without having to haul it back to empire. The price for this convenience was the horrible waste. However, this waste was considered to be worth it, because the only way you could get significant amounts of Megacyte and Zydrine was from ABC ores in null sec.
HoshinoRuri
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-09-12 22:52:13 UTC
Also the only ore that uses your skills is ice, when i ran a pos out in deep 0.0 i had one on mine for ice refining only, at that time used the old carrier filled with ity 5's maxed rig and cargo expander II's to haul the ore out to refine in empire. But like most things related to pos' they need a major overhaul, i think the last time ccp touched pos' directly was faction towers and the pos bug that got over 100 accounts banned, and indirectly with PI.
Hamatitio
The Forsakened Few
We Forsakened Few
#10 - 2011-09-13 02:16:13 UTC
Taedrin wrote:

QFT.

The most important thing to remember is that, IIRC, stations DID NOT EXIST in null sec, except for NPC null sec. In order to refine at a station, you had to haul the ore all the way to an Empire station. Refining arrays were introduced to allow miners to refine their ore on site without having to haul it back to empire. The price for this convenience was the horrible waste. However, this waste was considered to be worth it, because the only way you could get significant amounts of Megacyte and Zydrine was from ABC ores in null sec.


Not necessarily, Player controlled stations were released in 2003 about 6 months before Player owned stations. Without SOV etc, it only took a few battleships about a half an hour to take control of a station back then :).

POSs came in dominion with the simultaneous release of both carriers and dreads.
Flaming Candle
The White Aces
#11 - 2011-09-13 09:27:47 UTC
Hamatitio wrote:
POSs came in dominion with the simultaneous release of both carriers and dreads.
Not quite, According to the wikipedia article POS were introduced in Exodus, Dreadnoughts came later, in Exodus: Cold War and Carriers came even later, in Exodus: Red Moon Rising.
Nomedasi
Obvious Indecision
#12 - 2011-09-13 11:06:09 UTC
it use to be that a refinery mod at a POS could refine with skills almost as good as a Station but you didn't get hit for the Taxes. They changed it and made it have a worse refine rate to off set this. The change was made in the revelations patch I believe. It happened around 2008.
Flaming Candle
The White Aces
#13 - 2011-09-14 13:25:10 UTC
Nomedasi wrote:
it use to be that a refinery mod at a POS could refine with skills almost as good as a Station but you didn't get hit for the Taxes. They changed it and made it have a worse refine rate to off set this. The change was made in the revelations patch I believe. It happened around 2008.
Could you please link to the relevent patch notes?

The refinary array has refined at 75% for as long as I can remember it, and I've kept up with changes since I started in 2006.
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#14 - 2011-09-14 17:07:42 UTC
Flaming Candle wrote:
Nomedasi wrote:
it use to be that a refinery mod at a POS could refine with skills almost as good as a Station but you didn't get hit for the Taxes. They changed it and made it have a worse refine rate to off set this. The change was made in the revelations patch I believe. It happened around 2008.
Could you please link to the relevent patch notes?

The refinary array has refined at 75% for as long as I can remember it, and I've kept up with changes since I started in 2006.



Maybe it isnt that the POS refining array changed, but at some point NPC stations were buffed to have a better base? I haven't played that long but I thought maybe I read somewhere taht back in the day far fewer stations had a 50% base refine?
beor oranes
Annihilate.
#15 - 2011-09-15 06:07:17 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Maybe it isnt that the POS refining array changed, but at some point NPC stations were buffed to have a better base? I haven't played that long but I thought maybe I read somewhere taht back in the day far fewer stations had a 50% base refine?


You are half right, back in the day there were far fewer stations with 50% base refine, just because there were far fewer stations. The mining array is just one of the many items that is broken/useless because now there are ways round having to use it. Instead of fixing the mining array to give it benefit over hauling it out they just let it fester and forgot about it.

Back in the day industrials were going to have a role other than just hauling and comedy PvP...
Wisconsin Cheese
Kaalakiota Innovations
#16 - 2011-09-15 06:25:07 UTC
The POS refinery array can be used to refine ICE perfectly. I used to use one while mining ice in 0.0 so I did not have to go back to the station for heavy water to power the rorq giving the bonuses.

Cheese