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ECM Overhauling
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Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-03-30 16:07:02 UTC
Galan Amarias wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
STOP INTEGRATING CHANCE !!!!


Why? You have yet to make a cse for why chanced based mechanics are bad. Much less why ECM needs to be overhauled. The idea you are reaponding to was bad, but not because of an element of randomness.

You are totally ignoring all the other rolls in the game and the posters who have pointed them out to you.

Back up your assertions oradmit you are just another troll.


There are only two types of games – the ones based on skill and the ones based on luck.

You want to play a game that rewards a player for his prowess in the field of competition .

You have more kills and assists than him.
You have the upper-hand. You trade blows.
He gets the lead. You grab the lead. Then, he's done. you've won. This is what you worked for. But no...
His ECM drones get one cycle of jam on you despite of the absurdly low "chance" and then finishes you off instead. He types "gg noob" and walks off into the fog of war.

EvE is not a casual game. It's a competitive game, and the community values skill, teamwork, counter-play and all these competitive aspects so much that it makes NO SENSE why they wouldn't be bothered by random chance.
Random chance is archaic. It's for causal, relaxed table-top games, not games of skill.

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Galan Amarias
Kantian Principle
#62 - 2013-03-30 17:15:44 UTC
First, false dichotomy, all games have an element of chance, most games also have an element of skill. There are also lots of other elements.

Second, no, the noobs chance to get lucky is one of the elements that keep combat fresh and fun. No risk, no fun.

Third, if one cycle of ecm drones ruins your day, you are doing it wrong.

Fourth, another false dichotomy. It is whatever kind of game you make it, including casual. Hell with the offline isk and sp gain it can be totally casual.

Seriously, you are projecting absurd bias as though it were clear fact. Eve is a game of skill, part of that is stacking the odds in your favor, early and often. It seems to me you may be too risk adverse to enjoy this game.
Eka Lawrencia
Different Drummers
#63 - 2013-03-30 18:09:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Eka Lawrencia
If you are jammed, they show foresight while you don't. It's not chance, it's being prepared. The skill lies in choosing your weapons before the engagement.

They bring an extra ship to do electronic superiority, so you must bring a ship to do it too, or you are at a disadvantage. Electronic superiority (ES) is a subgame of pvp, avoid it at your peril. It's being played by the Caldari and the Gallente. So there exist two lines of EW that deal with ES, there are two lines of EW ships, there are relevant leadership skills, ships and other items, there are rigs and implants, all to get the upper hand in this subgame. It provides tactical choices and specializations. ECCM is only a small part of what you can do to counter ECM. ES ships fight each other with electronic weapons. It's a far cry from pure chance, there is timing, positioning, mutual support, choosing a mix of gimmicks to fit.

Given that you know for certain what your enemy is going to do before you even undock (jam you), and you still lose, the blame is on the jammed, not the tools employed. They bring high powered ES ships and pilots, it's self evident you are at their mercy if you don't do something against it.

Repeat: Electronic superiority is a subgame of pvp, avoid it at your peril.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-03-30 18:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivy Romanova
Eka Lawrencia wrote:
If you are jammed, they show foresight while you don't. It's not chance, it's being prepared. The skill lies in choosing your weapons before the engagement.

They bring an extra ship to do electronic superiority, so you must bring a ship to do it too, or you are at a disadvantage. Electronic superiority (ES) is a subgame of pvp, avoid it at your peril. It's being played by the Caldari and the Gallente. So there exist two lines of EW that deal with ES, there are two lines of EW ships, there are relevant leadership skills, ships and other items, there are rigs and implants, all to get the upper hand in this subgame. It provides tactical choices and specializations. ECCM is only a small part of what you can do to counter ECM. ES ships fight each other with electronic weapons. It's a far cry from pure chance, there is timing, positioning, mutual support, choosing a mix of gimmicks to fit.

Given that you know for certain what your enemy is going to do before you even undock (jam you), and you still lose, the blame is on the jammed, not the tools employed. They bring high powered ES ships and pilots, it's self evident you are at their mercy if you don't do something against it.

Repeat: Electronic superiority is a subgame of pvp, avoid it at your peril.


Not sure which line are you missing but no one is asking for the removal of ECM , we are asking for ECM to have a DEFINITE and predictable outcome .
On a side note about how ALL game factors probability into the outcome of a battle , it shouldn't .
Of course , you should be prepared . If the local residents are notorious for their usage of ECM boats ,you should go in prepared.
HOWEVER , the outcome should reflect your preparations.
A normal battle last around 1 minute to 30 seconds minimal.
1 cycle of being jammed is enough for your tank to be milked .
ITS THAT IMPORTANT .
This is not the lottery .
On a side note Galan , go shoot something

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Apoc Baltar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-03-30 19:30:12 UTC
How about first we give minmatar useful ewar. Target painting is kinda useless, except for blapping interceptors
Kamden Line
Sovereign Citizen and other Tax Evasion Schemes
#66 - 2013-03-30 19:31:40 UTC
Apoc Baltar wrote:
How about first we give minmatar useful ewar. Target painting is kinda useless, except for blapping interceptors


whoa whoa, stop suggesting helpful things now. People might get all pissy and start saying "WE NEED TO NERF SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY BEEN NERFED."

ITT, ECM remains not broken and some people haven't figured out how to deal with it and are thus, bitching.
Spurty
#67 - 2013-03-30 19:37:04 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
All ECM needs at this point is a range nerf.



What on earth?

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Eka Lawrencia
Different Drummers
#68 - 2013-03-30 19:39:24 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:

This is not the lottery.


I didn't miss a line, the point is that ECM is only part of a larger game that has to be played, a game that you ignore. The outcomes do reflect your preparations IF you prepare and use your tools skillfully, just what you want.

ECM does have a definite and predictable outcome. You know what will happen: You're jammed and can't shoot. This is what you must prepare for. ECM just doesn't always work as intended by your enemy if you're lucky. Do electronic superiority and you're not going to be jammed because the jammer can't lock you in the first place. If he still can, you have made a mistake, and you're going to be jammed. Or not, if you're lucky.

Electronic superiority ships also are not totally specialized to counter each other, they have other uses against "normal" ships even if they don't meet their counterpart. So arrange it that the enemy meets its counterpart.

It's not that you can't plan for it, or use your skills. That's not your problem. Your problem is that you go out there and count on your luck. Then you're disappointed that you aren't lucky.

Repeat: Electronic superiority is a subgame of pvp, ignore it at your peril.
Galan Amarias
Kantian Principle
#69 - 2013-03-30 19:40:26 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
[
On a side note Galan , go shoot something


Oh very soon now, very soon. Too bad you are an alt.

As to chance, you still have not made a convincing case for eliminating the random roll. For the record, I've seen Ecm without the rolls, it was not fun. The random favors the defender.

Even if the module was straight math though, there would still be chance involved, your whining about dice rolls is really weak.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#70 - 2013-03-30 21:44:39 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
There are only two types of games – the ones based on skill and the ones based on luck.


Exactly. There's not any element of Skill in poker, you just randomly fold or play because no skill can affect the outcome.

Likewise, there's no skill involved in Scrabble, and putting down letters at random will win you the game (1/[Number of Players])*100 % of the time.


The inclusion of chance based elements (like, say, EVE's gunnery or ECM mechanics) does not, in any way, negate the influence of skill on the outcome of a game.

If you're concerned about an ECM drone getting a lucky jam off, shoot them first to prevent that problem.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-03-30 21:53:58 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
The imps CRIES for NERF NERF NERF , OMG SO OP . I can't PvP derp derp . Caldari OP.


...I thought I left WoW...

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Mysa
EVIL PLANKTON
#72 - 2013-03-30 21:55:48 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
blablablaecmblablanerfblabla


After 1 gazillion threads about it theres still 13 replys are about stacking penalty on ecm mods, nothing has changed. Deal whit it

SoloFoLife! -KEKE the Merlin wonder
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-03-30 22:19:52 UTC
This discussion yet again for the nth to the power of mth time.

Answer is same as always: make ECM effect constant like any other E-war and base the unlockable targets on their signature radius vs distance/sensor strength etc etc etc. Small ships becomes hidden from overview/unlockable first and the stronger/more stacked the ECM the bigger the ships that will become hidden/unlockable - to a point where ECM will pretty much work exactly the same way current ECM does. The only difference at this stage would be that there is no chance based nonsense and second of all, to reach this stage you would have to invest several ECM modules on the target.

This will make ECM a very attractive modules for frigate fleets specially.
Galan Amarias
Kantian Principle
#74 - 2013-03-30 23:01:56 UTC
No, the answer is that ECM is fine. There does not need to be an entire new mechanic for the modules. Seriously, I have played this game since 2006 and people have been pissing into the wind over ECM from before I started through now. The system has had the crap nerfed out of it in that time, str reduced, low slot modules to make it work, massive range reductions, random fail chance reguardless of ecm strength and now we get defensive skills to boost sensor strength.

Still not enough? Admit it, you won't be happy until Ewar is removed from the game. All the whinie crap about having to be shot w/o shooting back totally ignoring that the same thing applies to sniping and sensor damp ships.

But suddenly for this one module it's the chance you don't like.

If you can't be asked to learn to cope, get a missle launching drone boat with fof.. then you willbe safe deom the ebil ecm monster.
Bob Nesta Marley
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-03-31 01:57:51 UTC
We jammin' mon.
TessVess
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-03-31 01:59:22 UTC
Bob Nesta Marley wrote:
We jammin' mon.


I wanna jam it wid you.
Bob Nesta Marley
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-03-31 02:00:24 UTC
TessVess wrote:
Bob Nesta Marley wrote:
We jammin' mon.


I wanna jam it wid you.


We're jammin
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-03-31 02:01:17 UTC
Bob Nesta Marley wrote:
TessVess wrote:
Bob Nesta Marley wrote:
We jammin' mon.


I wanna jam it wid you.


We're jammin


And I hope ya like jammin' too

Hello, hello again.
Grayson Cole
Doomheim
#79 - 2013-03-31 02:12:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Grayson Cole
Ivy Romanova wrote:
There are only two types of games – the ones based on skill and the ones based on luck.

EvE is not a casual game. It's a competitive game, and the community values skill, teamwork, counter-play and all these competitive aspects so much that it makes NO SENSE why they wouldn't be bothered by random chance.
Random chance is archaic. It's for causal, relaxed table-top games, not games of skill.


No. Just no.

Does it take skill to gate camp? Does it take skill to war dec high sec industrial corps and call yourself a "merc"? Does it take skill to blob? Does it take skill to call yourself a "solo" pilot when you have off-grid boosters and logi?

You're right, EVE is not a casual game. Just like any other MMO, EVE PvP is all about not engaging unless you have a notable advantage over your opponent. Most FC won't lead their team into a fight unless the target(s) are seriously outnumbered or outgunned. And that is a fact. Please don't even attempt to talk about "skill" being the cornerstone of PvP in this or any other MMO, because it never has been and never will be.

ECM pisses people off just like stuns/mezzes in any other game because it effectively locks you out of combat. There are several tactical and hard counters to ECM, but it seems to be easier for players to just whine about balance issues instead of utilizing those counters. EVE has a lot of unique gameplay, but the overall MMO roles of tank/dps/heals/debuffs are here too. Gimped fleet compositions are going to be owned by ECM. DPS is not the be-all end-all of this or any other game.

Put some lotion on your bruised ego and HTFU.

.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-03-31 02:30:26 UTC
Galan Amarias wrote:
No, the answer is that ECM is fine. There does not need to be an entire new mechanic for the modules. Seriously, I have played this game since 2006 and people have been pissing into the wind over ECM from before I started through now. The system has had the crap nerfed out of it in that time, str reduced, low slot modules to make it work, massive range reductions, random fail chance reguardless of ecm strength and now we get defensive skills to boost sensor strength.

Still not enough? Admit it, you won't be happy until Ewar is removed from the game. All the whinie crap about having to be shot w/o shooting back totally ignoring that the same thing applies to sniping and sensor damp ships.

But suddenly for this one module it's the chance you don't like.

If you can't be asked to learn to cope, get a missle launching drone boat with fof.. then you willbe safe deom the ebil ecm monster.


umm no.
I use E-war and has NEVER been killed as a result of E-war on me .
No one is whining about REMOVING , we are talking about actual BALANCING instead of nerfing.
Think about it .
If we merge the sensor damp and Jam features , you'll be at least getting a 20 seconds head start off your foes when you use the revamped ECM modules. MORE than enough to inflict MASSIVE losses on the enemy , instead of being ..
Quote:
welll... if this locks and it jams I should be able to get him ... fingers crossed



and admit it , you are one of this lots

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