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Why does the Jaguar have a optimal bonuns?
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Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-03-29 12:56:29 UTC
...and yet make it damned near impossible to fit artys?

because the auto fits would be too powerful?

CCP recently gave it a low slot, which has made basically no difference to arty fits and barely any to auto fits.

Arty trasher cripples itself too and rifters (or any other minm frig) pretty much never do.

Are small artys too powerful? Is a tiny 3 gun alpha really that op?

Well what ever the case, how about changing the bonus to ... well anything else since its a dead bonus on the atuo fits which the jag is pretty much limited to.

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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#2 - 2013-03-29 13:16:34 UTC
Perhaps the difficulty is less about fitting arties and more about fitting arties with medium shield extenders.

I have to admit that I haven't flown my Jag for years but I don't recall it being hard to fit except in comparison with the Dramiel...
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-03-29 15:47:07 UTC
Dunno why the Jag has any range bonuses since it shines most as a heavy tackler. If you want to kite, use a Wolf.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-03-29 16:17:34 UTC
Hakaimono wrote:
Dunno why the Jag has any range bonuses since it shines most as a heavy tackler. If you want to kite, use a Wolf.


yeah... which gets a falloff bonus...

I know everyone cried aaaages ago about swapping the opt for falloff on both these, but the jag is definitely the one worse off in when it comes to making use of its bonus properly.

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#5 - 2013-03-29 22:13:51 UTC
I agree with swapping the bonuses between the Wolf and Jag.

Arty Jag:
High:
280mm II x 3
Empty High
Mid:
Limited MWD
Medium Regolith Extender
Cap Recharger II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
MAPC II
Gyro II
TE II
Nano II
Rigs:
ACR
Auxilliary Thrusters or Shield Extender

The above fit is about the best you can do for a kitey fit and you need perfect fitting and shield skills to squeeze it on. The Jag as an arty platform has the following issues - severe PG problems, very limited capacitor for extended operation of the MWD and long point, useless fourth high, and tracking issues at high speeds.

The wolf as an arty platform actually has a superior damage curve for most of the engagement envelope.
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#6 - 2013-03-29 22:15:19 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Hakaimono wrote:
Dunno why the Jag has any range bonuses since it shines most as a heavy tackler. If you want to kite, use a Wolf.


yeah... which gets a falloff bonus...

I know everyone cried aaaages ago about swapping the opt for falloff on both these, but the jag is definitely the one worse off in when it comes to making use of its bonus properly.


Falloff bonus is still useful on arty
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-03-29 22:16:23 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I agree with swapping the bonuses between the Wolf and Jag.

Arty Jag:
High:
280mm II x 3
Empty High
Mid:
Limited MWD
Medium Regolith Extender
Cap Recharger II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
MAPC II
Gyro II
TE II
Nano II
Rigs:
ACR
Auxilliary Thrusters or Shield Extender

The above fit is about the best you can do for a kitey fit and you need perfect fitting and shield skills to squeeze it on. The Jag as an arty platform has the following issues - severe PG problems, very limited capacitor for extended operation of the MWD and long point, useless fourth high, and tracking issues at high speeds.

The wolf as an arty platform actually has a superior damage curve for most of the engagement envelope.


lets examine this, ACR aux nano for cpu a cap recharger and a spare high slot, for how much damage?

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Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-03-29 22:17:07 UTC
BadAssMcKill wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Hakaimono wrote:
Dunno why the Jag has any range bonuses since it shines most as a heavy tackler. If you want to kite, use a Wolf.


yeah... which gets a falloff bonus...

I know everyone cried aaaages ago about swapping the opt for falloff on both these, but the jag is definitely the one worse off in when it comes to making use of its bonus properly.


Falloff bonus is still useful on arty


thats exactly what i meant: so what does the opt bonus do on a ship that cant use it?

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#9 - 2013-03-29 22:21:22 UTC
865 Alpha. 125 DPS. 147 overheated which it can do for about a minute and 15 seconds. That is with close range faction that gives 12.9km optimal and 14.2km falloff.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-03-29 22:24:36 UTC
so with either artys taking less or jag having more fitting, we could fly a arty fit on a jag with an opt bonus and not only use it but actually fit pvp modules and a minor tank in all our slots and rigs?

its role is range with optimal, yet it isnt.

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Quontor Zarrkos
Island Monkeys
#11 - 2013-03-29 22:43:55 UTC
I agree here that the bonuses on the jag feel a bit 'wasted'. The awesome part about the ship is the slot layout, 4/4/4 is really flexible and nice for a frigate imo.
Kenerian
Tri-gun
#12 - 2013-03-30 00:21:26 UTC
Jag is a solid ship, although I can't say much for the car these days...
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#13 - 2013-03-30 15:01:15 UTC
Kenerian wrote:
Jag is a solid ship, although I can't say much for the car these days...


I think you'll find a use for any 4-4-4 slot frigate. That is simply to good of a layout not to get use. The question revolves around the use of artillery on the Jag - that is what the optimal bonus is there for.

I honestly don't recall the last time I fought an arty jag. I personally have tried to fly them but have never been really satisfied by any fit. I posted the long point Kiter fit above. I've also tried a scram range Kiter fit:

High:
250mm II x 3
Malkuth Light Missile Launcher
Mid:
AB II
Medium Regolith Shield Extender
Meta web
Meta scram
Low:
MAPC II
Gyro II
TE II x 2
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 2

8.4 k EHP. 126 DPS. Keep the target at 8km an pound away. This level of damage is anemic for an AF though. The Hawk and Vengeance make for much better scram range kiters.

My last attempt at an arty jag used a SAAR in the lows for tank and a AB, dual web and scram configuration in the mids. With only around 576 armor though, the jag really has a hard time armor tanking. The optimal bonus on the jag is wasted.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#14 - 2013-03-30 15:10:57 UTC
My last point is the arty wolf:

High:
280mm II x 4
Empty High
Mid:
Limited MWD
Faint Warp Disruptor
Low:
MAPC II
TE II x 2
Internal Force Fiels Array
Explosive Plating II
Rigs:
Projectile Burst
Projectile Collision

The damage curve exceeds that of the Jaguar at all but a narrow stretch of middle range. The fitting is much easier - albeit tight on CPU. 1153 alpha with close range faction is much closer to the mark. I realize many fits nano the hell out of the arty wolf or load it with fitting mods to get more gyros on- the above fit is a practical example only.

Recommendations:

Give the Jag a falloff bonus rather then optimal. Transfer 100 shield points to armor.

Give the Wolf an optimal bonus. Give it 10 more CPU.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-03-30 16:18:43 UTC
My 50km Artillery Thrasher disagrees with being crippled.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-03-31 05:17:32 UTC
Keep an eye open for the Assault Frigate tiericide.
Best to be very vibrant when the thread hits F&ID forums.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#17 - 2013-03-31 09:22:41 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
...and yet make it damned near impossible to fit artys?
.


Because CCP like a joke.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#18 - 2013-03-31 20:02:34 UTC
Jag is already more popular, what would be the real, non stealth results for both ships especially in comparison.
Zircon Dasher
#19 - 2013-03-31 21:01:29 UTC
Mmmm..... arty jag gangs with link and RR support

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#20 - 2013-04-01 13:17:36 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I agree with swapping the bonuses between the Wolf and Jag.

Arty Jag:
High:
280mm II x 3
Empty High
Mid:
Limited MWD
Medium Regolith Extender
Cap Recharger II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
MAPC II
Gyro II
TE II
Nano II
Rigs:
ACR
Auxilliary Thrusters or Shield Extender

The above fit is about the best you can do for a kitey fit and you need perfect fitting and shield skills to squeeze it on. The Jag as an arty platform has the following issues - severe PG problems, very limited capacitor for extended operation of the MWD and long point, useless fourth high, and tracking issues at high speeds.

The wolf as an arty platform actually has a superior damage curve for most of the engagement envelope.


No, it actually doesnt.

It also has absolutely no tank whatsoever, making its engagement envelope extremely small. It dies if you fart on it.

I fly a wolf with a pair of TEs. I will happily fight any arty wolf, anytime, anyday in it. And I dont have to run the instant a drone is deployed or someone starts hitting me. Still not much tank, but infinitely better than the FOTM artillery shitfit in every meaningful way.

Please stop trying to destroy the Wolf so you can have a T2 dramiel. The Jaguar sucks, I am 100% with you on that. I wish people would stop recommending fixes to the Jag at the expense of the wolf.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"