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POS-module: Clone-Bank
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Demos Mirak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-03-26 20:11:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Demos Mirak
As you all undoubtedly know, you cannot clone-jump inside WH-space, because there are no stations around and you'd be cut off from the fluid-router network anyways. But there's a lot of use for specialized clones and it is unfair against WH'ers to cut them off such a resource. This is way I introduce the Clone-Bank, a POS-module. The clone-bank has likewise statistics as the Ship Maintenance Array.

And from here on there are multiple posibilities:

1. The Clone-Bank is unconnected to the fluid-router network, and is merely a place to store and swap clones. Pilots only have acces to their own clones, which they can name. Acces to the clone-bank is defined by roles, maybe there can even be put a limit to the max amount of clones one pilot can store in the Bank, based on said roles. Those who have been rewarded sufficient acces can throw away clones, to make room for other clones., as the space in the clone-bank is limited. The cooldown could be same as it is for jump-clones now, but it might be good to lower it for this option, as you do not get the benefit of being transported to a far, far away system.

2. The clone-bank can be linked to other clone-banks in the corporation/alliance or with whoever they have Excellent standings with. This gives the oppurtunity of limited jump-clone capability. If applied to WH's, it means that members of an corporation or alliance that owns multiple WH's can support each other more readily. If applied to null-sec, this for an instance can be used to install a small forward base, when one does not have acces to a station with jump-clone possibilities. The CPU/PG needs of the module can be scaled up when there are more connections to other clone-banks. The cooldown for normal jump-clones should apply here.

3. The clone-bank can be linked to the to real jump-clone network, and thus works as an extension of the existing jump-clone network. Normal jump-clone cooldown timer.

I would like to hear your thoughts about this and how it might suck balls.

Edit:
I forgot this in the original post, but the clones got to come from somewhere, don't they.
There are two options for this:

1. The clones are made on site, this is done by putting the PI product Biomass in the Biomass-hold, when needed this will be converted into a empty clone. High-grade clones need more biomass. This works in roughly the same manner as a strontium hold in a POS, when needed this is used and this would give you one clone, which will then be stored in the clone-hold of the module.

2. The clones are made by means of BPO's and BPC's, and then they can be installed into the Clone-bank. I do not like this idea, as it would force people to use certain kinds of clone, and even more, would give a lot of clone BPO's and BPC's, making it all very convoluted. This would also put an extra strain on the logistics department, as they would have to keep the Clone-Bank stocked.
Infinite Force
#2 - 2013-03-26 22:49:56 UTC
I can agree with the concept and most of the implementation.

As I understand it, the primary reason that you can't JC into a WH is because it is "cut off" from the rest of the universe. Given this, I do not support linking these modules.

You could also avoid the clone creation part, make the POS module a clone storage unit only. The Roqual and a Clone Vat could then take over the creation part.

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Demos Mirak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-03-27 13:00:36 UTC
True, making it link while in WH space would severly chance the dynamics of WH combat, in which, if you were to be podded, you could be cut off for the rest of the fight. Maybe this option would only apply to K-space POS's?

If they clones would be supplied by means of the Rorqual, it would make the entry barrier for this module a lot higher. Not only would they need to be able to manage the POS, pay the upkeep and the rest, in addition to this they would also need to build (if you're in a lower class WH) their own Rorqual and have a pilot for it. I do not know of this is good move. But it certainly is an interesting option.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2013-03-27 16:21:35 UTC
Similar ideas to this have been posted before: POS cloning Facility

Some of the same concerns still apply:

How does it work?
  • I assume just like a Rorqual or Titan bay. Fly to it, if there is clone-slot available, install clone...

    • Option 1: I assume you either fly up to the POS clone bank in a capsule, and simply swap "capsules" much like you'd swap ships from the SMA. However, this doesn't allow you to access clones in a remote facility! --- I would fully support this option...

    The clone swapping (Option 1) provides a lot of utility for players:
    --- Easy storage of your implanted clone.
    --- Access to specialized clones for specialized roles.
    --- Vulnerability... Unlike clones stored in a station, clones stored in a POS are vulnerable to the POS's destruction... As long as the facility required CPU (so the clones are inaccessible when the station is RF'd), I'd support this....
    --- Limits... I would limit the number of stored clones in a single POS Bay to 1 / player... If you want more in the same system, install more bays... I'd also limit the number of clones players can install in a single bay (like 20ish).

    Option 2: Essentially Option 1, but access to the Clone bank is granted by standings.... This would only work if the clone bank was located outside of the POS shields (like a JB). Then, when people spawn they'd be immediately vulnerable... which is a reasonable enhancement of Option 1.... With appropriate limits as outlined above, and with the immediate vulnerability of a spawned POD, I would support this option.

    Option 3: Your essentially creating the ability to JC to a POS.... be it from a station, another POS, etc.... Jump Cloning implies you already have a clone installed at the destination (and we have a limited number of clones available with the additional limit of one JC/day). --- I do NOT support this option...

    Option 4: This POS module can work as your "Home Station" for the purpose of Death Cloning. Death cloning would be remotely installing your "Home Station" to the facility, and podding yourself to spawn at the destination. This is the main benefit of stations with a Medical Facility. --- I'm vehemently opposed to this option...

    Why I don't support Optoins 3 & 4:
    The ability to instantly travel to a POS? You can't JC into a POS without a Titan or Rorqual, and that limits how quickly you can respond to an event at the POS. I honestly view the ability to instantly JC to a pos under attack, and land safely within the POS shields as a very BAD thing:

    a.) You can try to claim that you can already do such a thing with a titan or Rorqual, but that's simply disingenuous, as logging in a Titan or Rorqual to a POS under siege is terribly risky. Furthermore, if you already have a Pilot that can log into the POS, you don't need to JC there!!

    b.) Currently, without the ability to JC to the POS, when a POS is attacked you have to JC to a nearby station (which often is NOT nearby) and then fly, in space, to the POS (which is often risky and full of challenges). The ability to insta-travel to a POS makes setting stront levels to optimize RF timers trivial... This makes emptying lab, corp, & ship hangars trivial... This makes getting a cyno ship onto the field to cyno in a response trivial... Yuck...

    c.) It would significantly change WH dynamics... Currently, if you are in a WH and get podded, you end up in k-space, and far from any action going on in the WH. This creates a balancing factor for WH invasions: The enemy has a mass-limited amount of force they can bring into the WH to assault a fortified force. That force potentially has access to significantly more ships, but every time the enemy pods a resident, that resident is removed from the fight. Changing this would make assaulting fortified WH's even more challenging, which I don't think is necessary!! (although I'll defer to WH raiders on this opinion).

    While limiting it to "pre-installed" JC's (option 3) is better than opening it up to death cloning (option 4), I think the way this enhances access to a POS that's under attack is completely unacceptable, and would be detrimental to the game.
    Demos Mirak
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #5 - 2013-03-27 17:14:35 UTC
    I agree that option 4 is a definite no-go, for the reasons you gave. I included option 3 for the sake of completeness and I should have said that I like that option least as well.

    When the Clone-bank is to be place outside of POS shield it would be a perfect target for attacks and a real stake driver, but I'm at a loss if it should have a high amount of EHP, as to give defenders an oppurtunity to rally an defense and not making the killing of 20 possible high-grade clones with expensive implants, or to make it a relatively low EHP module, so that small gang warfare gets incentified, as this is bound to be used in null-sec as well.

    I admit that I forgot about stront timers, cynos and the emptying labs and other modules. Of all those I can only see a positive side to the cyno, with which you could escalate the fight, which would be nice if both sides brought the same amount of force, resulting in fabled good fights, but knowing EvE, that will probably not happen. So you're right about that too.

    The CPU requirement should be implemented as well.
    Velicitia
    XS Tech
    #6 - 2013-03-27 17:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
    Demos Mirak wrote:
    I agree that option 4 is a definite no-go, for the reasons you gave. I included option 3 for the sake of completeness and I should have said that I like that option least as well.

    When the Clone-bank is to be place outside of POS shield it would be a perfect target for attacks and a real stake driver, but I'm at a loss if it should have a high amount of EHP, as to give defenders an oppurtunity to rally an defense and not making the killing of 20 possible high-grade clones with expensive implants, or to make it a relatively low EHP module, so that small gang warfare gets incentified, as this is bound to be used in null-sec as well.

    I admit that I forgot about stront timers, cynos and the emptying labs and other modules. Of all those I can only see a positive side to the cyno, with which you could escalate the fight, which would be nice if both sides brought the same amount of force, resulting in fabled good fights, but knowing EvE, that will probably not happen. So you're right about that too.

    The CPU requirement should be implemented as well.


    Outside the shields, low EHP, though works like guns and has 99% hull resists across the board while the POS is online.

    Incapping the mod means no more clones ... but the silly high resists on the hull mean it's more likely to just be incapp'd than destroyed by a roaming gang, so the clones should still be "safe" (for some definition of safe, anyway).

    One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
    Demos Mirak
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #7 - 2013-03-27 18:05:02 UTC
    These are all good improvements. As some of you might have seen already, i'm relatively new to EvE, and especially to POS management and modules. This was just idea I have been toying with for the last few days.

    I'm assuming that the use of the Clone-bank would be dependend on the pilots level of infomorph psychology, but would this count as a real jump clone, or as a seperate kind of clone?
    Rroff
    Antagonistic Tendencies
    #8 - 2013-03-27 20:38:12 UTC
    Don't really see the need for it to be outside of the POS FF aslong as you can only access those clones by actually being at that structure - so even if you get podded in a WH fight, even in the same system as your POS, you'd still end up back in k-space and have to make your way back inside. Tho I'm guessing it would be a structure that becomes inacessable once the POS has been reinforced.
    Arronicus
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #9 - 2013-03-27 20:44:07 UTC
    Demos Mirak wrote:
    As you all undoubtedly know, you cannot clone-jump inside WH-space, because there are no stations around


    Entire thread based on a misconception. If CCP allowed you to jump to the already present way of having jumpclones in wormhole space (Rorqual clone vat bay) this would be a non issue.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #10 - 2013-03-27 21:05:20 UTC
    Rroff wrote:
    Don't really see the need for it to be outside of the POS FF aslong as you can only access those clones by actually being at that structure - so even if you get podded in a WH fight, even in the same system as your POS, you'd still end up back in k-space and have to make your way back inside. Tho I'm guessing it would be a structure that becomes inacessable once the POS has been reinforced.


    Before I re-organized my post, while I was thinking it could be used to JC or deathclone to, I thought having it inside the POS FF was obnoxiously too much....

    If you have to fly to it to swap clones... and as long as the clones are inaccessible once the POS is RF'd, I can see a good argument that is should be near the SMA...
    Demos Mirak
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #11 - 2013-03-27 21:23:03 UTC
    Arronicus wrote:
    Demos Mirak wrote:
    As you all undoubtedly know, you cannot clone-jump inside WH-space, because there are no stations around


    Entire thread based on a misconception. If CCP allowed you to jump to the already present way of having jumpclones in wormhole space (Rorqual clone vat bay) this would be a non issue.


    I'm more a fan of option 1 than the rest really, and I included them for the sake of completeness. And yes, you can't clone-jump in WH space and option 1 does not completely take that away, it merely mediates it and gives another option, a way to store your clone. This only the same as jump-cloning in regards to having multiple clones with different implant sets. You do not get the added bonus of moving to a different space. So it's jump-cloning at extremely close ranges, namely 2500 meters or something like that.
    Demos Mirak
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #12 - 2013-03-28 18:58:47 UTC
    Does anyone else have an opinion about this?