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Is "Blue Donut" Misleading?

Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2013-03-27 03:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Those dozens of people should probably not be in nullsec, then, if they're completely incapable of having small and medium scale fights on a regular basis.

Because I certainly don't have a problem with it and neither do thousands of other people.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Andracin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2013-03-27 03:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Andracin
Honestly I think human nature is more to blame than anything for the "big blue donut". If your big enough to take the space and fight harder than the guy who had it before you its nautral that once you own it you want to reap its benefits. Continued fighting other than for a break in boredum interups people running annoms and plexes and looses isk rather than gain it. Face it most people go to null seeking isk not epic fights.
I started out in 0.0 in the epic failure that was FREGE back when everyone practically stopped fighting to stare when a carrier would land on grid because not very many people would even commit a capital unless victory was certain...even back then we were in a Mutal Aid in Defense (MAD) pact with most of the left half of the donut so I don't buy the story that supers made the donut happen either.
Even if null was given unlimited industrial slots in stations, mega veldspar and scordite astroids, agents in null stations, easier ways to take sov than massive grinds or any of the other "fixes" ive seen on the forums I don't think the donut would change. I think we are at a point where most alliances are going to failscade internally long before external agression pushes them out of their sov. Its human nature to not risk what you have to get something that is not any better than than what you have already and have to spend time and money to get.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2013-03-27 03:44:36 UTC
i, for one, would rather sit in some hostile wormhole for weeks sneaking caps in and hunting their cap pilots when they're in more vulnerable ships (assuming that the residents are frozen in the past and don't have dedicated alts logged off in the caps)

indeed, sitting around cloaked is super fun

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2013-03-27 03:46:17 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
You see two feet in front of you. I see for miles. Blink


i realize that the height of eve online for you is roaming endlessly to update some intel sheet with data on friendly structures and towers but honestly a lot of us just find that boring

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Grayson Cole
Doomheim
#65 - 2013-03-27 03:54:03 UTC
Andski wrote:
[...but honestly a lot of us just find that boring


It's far more entertaining to be one of the Goon spin doctors who trolls the forums relentlessly.

.

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-03-27 03:54:49 UTC
Andracin wrote:
Honestly I think human nature is more to blame than anything for the "big blue donut". If your big enough to take the space and fight harder than the guy who had it before you its nautral that once you own it you want to reap its benefits. Continued fighting other than for a break in boredum interups people running annoms and plexes and looses isk rather than gain it. Face it most people go to null seeking isk not epic fights.
I started out in 0.0 in the epic failure that was FREGE back when everyone practically stopped fighting to stare when a carrier would land on grid because not very many people would even commit a capital unless victory was certain...even back then we were in a Mutal Aid in Defense (MAD) pact with most of the left half of the donut so I don't buy the story that supers made the donut happen either.
Even if null was given unlimited industrial slots in stations, mega veldspar and scordite astroids, agents in null stations, easier ways to take sov than massive grinds or any of the other "fixes" ive seen on the forums I don't think the donut would change. I think we are at a point where most alliances are going to failscade internally long before external agression pushes them out of their sov. Its human nature to not risk what you have to get something that is not any better than than what you have already and have to spend time and money to get.

Don't forget null before the anomaly nerf. You know where every system can, and would be, upgraded to be the same ISK fountain as any other system in null. The only difference was where your system was, strategically speaking and if the system has some nice moons. Null was saturated with bears farming nonstop. No one was fighting then. So CCP changed it to make some systems more valuable to give a reason to fight. Again, no one fought.

Maybe a vast majority of players are simply good people and violence is not in them. Big smile
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-03-27 03:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Georgina Parmala
Marlona Sky wrote:

I don't know. I guess some people need to attach the label 'Holy Grail' on to something. Wormholes may not have local (yay!), but that leads to smashing the directional scanner button every two seconds (lame) in another effort to stay safe. With enough people on, you can large bubble any entrances to your system and stick an alt there cloaked with the volume all the way up so when someone jumps in, you hear it. The moment you do everyone gets safe. Another thing is it is common practice to not log in anything as an invader till you have enough people there to do a slaughter. Is that ~good fights~? Of course not.

Maybe it earns that title from people by the simple fact of no cynos. How many fights these days in null and even low sec result in one side starting to lose a sub cap fight and suddely...

C
Y
N
O

Enter on the field, well... anything. Anything from more sub capital ships from a titan bridge, to carriers, to dreads, to super carriers and even titans to body slam onto the "I Win!" button.

Sure it can lead to a massive battle where it makes the news and thousands of people are involved, but how often does that really happen? Once a year?, maybe? Bottom line is there is people who will easily give up on the an annual large battle to have dozens and dozens (even more) good small to medium scale battles without the holy grail of power projection. The cyno.


I'm still on the topic of what the OP said.

// EDIT: Not to completely discount your post, but what does logoffski vs Cyno and local vs dscan and cloaked scout alts have to do with throwing away SRP ships for fun vs "real pvp" of threatening income sources.

Isayeki Ohaya wrote:

You guys aren't fighting over anything of value though. There's no sov war going on, no structures being shot. You undock what your SRP will replace for you, if there's any risk you might lose isk, you don't fight. It's not real PVP when it's without consequences.

Wormhole space seems to be the last refuge of PVP in eve.


But there are no consequences there either. It's just expendable ships exploding in an attempt to have fun. Just like everywhere else in EvE. With no threat to income sources beyond some ratting boats of line members getting blown up.

According to lots of people, that's not PvP. Apparently it's only a Player vs Player interaction when a CSAA with a titan blows up or a Tech moon changes hands. And I would dare say just one would be deemed as "acceptable losses".

I'm trying to understand that sentiment. In a game where every single ship that blows up, quite literally affects the game play experience of a dozen people. From mining to industry to logistics to market warfare to whatever the fight may have been. Or whomever the gun looted off the wreck shot the week after.

The only people that seem to meet this narrow definition of PvP and not being risk averse are the month old noobs. With 10 mil isk in their wallet, that refit their level 3 mission battlecruiser for PvP and go looking for a fight outside High Sec. Knowing if they die, they lose their source of income. But fixing even that is a plex away from being a non issue. Hey, today I'll get more isk and play eve instead of getting a case of beer. Nope, no risk there either.

So what is Risk?
When does the chance of losing what you are putting on the line, stop being risk and become a calculated expense for having fun?
Furthermore, why does it matter?

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Ra'Shyne Viper
Native Freshfood
#68 - 2013-03-27 05:06:14 UTC
pvp stands for Player vs Player, i had no idea the hi-sec and WH-space people were this stupid.

DUST 514 player

Ingame name: Vin Vicious

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2013-03-27 05:36:13 UTC
Ra'Shyne Viper wrote:
pvp stands for Player vs Player, i had no idea the hi-sec and WH-space people were this stupid.



I know right?

They would be more like nullbears and assure only player vs structure.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-03-27 05:55:46 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:

Why is that an acceptable practice in W-Space, but not in Null? Why do they have to go shoot buildings for days under TiDi to please you?

i dunno. maybe because 0.0 is trademark of CCP? Maybe 0.0 is like endgame in Eve Online?
Maybe because children games are good when children play it and not when amateur play it? Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2013-03-27 06:23:48 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:

Why is that an acceptable practice in W-Space, but not in Null? Why do they have to go shoot buildings for days under TiDi to please you?

i dunno. maybe because 0.0 is trademark of CCP? Maybe 0.0 is like endgame in Eve Online?
Maybe because children games are good when children play it and not when amateur play it? Cool

So what does any of that have to do with... anything?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Carrelle Rouppon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-03-27 07:31:44 UTC
*cough* SOLAR vs N3 *cough*

This is currently the only war.

Without operations like mine it would be impossible for certain Alliances to conduct a respectable war. There are three basic types of arms deal: white, being legal, black, being illegal, and my personal favorite, gray.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#73 - 2013-03-27 07:36:54 UTC
Carrelle Rouppon wrote:
*cough* SOLAR vs N3 *cough*

This is currently the only war.



Er, no it isn't

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#74 - 2013-03-27 07:37:34 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:

Why is that an acceptable practice in W-Space, but not in Null? Why do they have to go shoot buildings for days under TiDi to please you?

i dunno. maybe because 0.0 is trademark of CCP? Maybe 0.0 is like endgame in Eve Online?
Maybe because children games are good when children play it and not when amateur play it? Cool


So not shooting structures is "amateur play"?

That's an interesting assertion.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Carrelle Rouppon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-03-27 07:42:46 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Carrelle Rouppon wrote:
*cough* SOLAR vs N3 *cough*

This is currently the only war.



Er, no it isn't


Sure it is, the rest of null-sec is HBC and/or CFC.

Without operations like mine it would be impossible for certain Alliances to conduct a respectable war. There are three basic types of arms deal: white, being legal, black, being illegal, and my personal favorite, gray.

Kamden Line
Sovereign Citizen and other Tax Evasion Schemes
#76 - 2013-03-27 07:50:54 UTC
You're right. Why don't two monolithic entities engage in a needlessly long (sov-grinding all those regions), pointless (both coalitions already have power, money, and influence) for zero gain and a very high likely hood of failscading into nothinginess?

Man, it's almost like players make their own content that doesn't suck, unlike sov grinding. Until CCP changes the sov system and/or the HBC failscades, lets stop rehashing the same old tired riverini meme. It wasn't insightful or funny then and it still isn't insightful or funny now.
Alara IonStorm
#77 - 2013-03-27 07:52:21 UTC
Carrelle Rouppon wrote:
*cough* SOLAR vs N3 *cough*

This is currently the only war.

Warfare in Null Space has been so prevalent of late. Just when you think they've stopped the killing a new front opens up and more innocent people living and working on frontier Starbases are killed or displaced. Good folks trying to build a life, going where the jobs are, mining moons and Planets, building ships, hard work to feed their families then the planets are cut off, soon to be invaded, their Starbases destroyed without a thought.

Why can't people keep behind their damn own boarders. Not like there isn't enough to go around, keeping those bases fueled and profits coming in. Instead these Nations are forced to waste their capital on massive military stockpiles and so called super ships as a deterrent just to find some basic level of stability.

Such a sad situation for all involved. Just horrible.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#78 - 2013-03-27 07:54:55 UTC
Carrelle Rouppon wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Carrelle Rouppon wrote:
*cough* SOLAR vs N3 *cough*

This is currently the only war.



Er, no it isn't


Sure it is, the rest of null-sec is HBC and/or CFC.


I'm sorry that you only get your information from EN24, but there has been a largely unreported but nevertheless active war in and around Stain for quite a while now.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Cyprus Black
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2013-03-27 08:04:55 UTC
I think everyone seems to be missing the point or in a few cases interpreting the Blue Donut as to be literally a donut with a blue hue.

The Blue Donut is a metaphor for alliances who have good standings with other alliances, whom also have good standings with their neighbors, whom also have good standings with their neighbors, so on and so forth which creates a ring. One alliance on one side of the galaxy may not necessarily be on good standings with another on the other side of the galaxy, but through a friend of a friend of a friend they really are.

Hence the term Blue Donut.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2013-03-27 08:11:12 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:
I think everyone seems to be missing the point or in a few cases interpreting the Blue Donut as to be literally a donut with a blue hue.

The Blue Donut is a metaphor for alliances who have good standings with other alliances, whom also have good standings with their neighbors, whom also have good standings with their neighbors, so on and so forth which creates a ring. One alliance on one side of the galaxy may not necessarily be on good standings with another on the other side of the galaxy, but through a friend of a friend of a friend they really are.

Hence the term Blue Donut.



That doesn't exist.