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Is "Blue Donut" Misleading?

Author
Apocryphal Noise
The Harpooner's Rest
#41 - 2013-03-26 19:51:32 UTC
Isayeki Ohaya wrote:


You guys aren't fighting over anything of value though. There's no sov war going on, no structures being shot. You undock what your SRP will replace for you, if there's any risk you might lose isk, you don't fight. It's not real PVP when it's without consequences.

Wormhole space seems to be the last refuge of PVP in eve.


Actually Darkness of Despair has been shooting money moons in Stain. There's definitely something at stake. Then again it's pretty apparent you don't know anything about the nullsec political situation.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-03-26 20:41:11 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Dash Bishop wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Unless, of course, one of the major coalitions splinters from within, giving the other a clear and decisive advantage.

I have little doubt that if the CFC suddenly went **** up and split into 15 different smaller alliances all bickering with one another, the HBC would jump on that like a fat kid on cake. And vice versa - leadership would be silly not to.


Apparently you've been under a rock lately.

HBC is falling apart. Montolio (leader of TEST) has stepped down, some of the corps are fighting over who gets what, and the new leadership is making sweeping changes to try and fix it all. If CFC was really interested in beating HBC out of existence, now would be the perfect time to inflict some serious damage.

Except they're not. Because, yanno, RMT.

Confirming that Montolio betrayed us, Dreddit is planning to leave TEST, Fras Siabi is The Mittani's alt, Sort makes over $100/month in RMT and all members of the HBC hate each other.


Way to leave out that Vile Rat is still alive and pulling the strings behind PL now.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-03-26 20:50:00 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
$100/month in RMT

Wow, really? That's like, a Friday night at the bar. {insert outrage that people make "real" money off playing a game}

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Silvara Nocturn
Nocturn Industries
#44 - 2013-03-26 21:52:05 UTC
blue pretzel has my vote.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-03-27 02:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
De'Veldrin wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
If you want to know where REAL conflict is happening, just look up recent SBU and TCU kills on eve-kill.net.


The war in the east is good, but it's not nearly enough.

Though maybe "blue doughnut" should be "blue croissant".

I never really suggested it was good enough. It would make sense in a PvP game for everyone to shoot anyone not in their alliance, but sadly the vast majority of players in this game are simply afraid of their own shadow and the thought of a challenge. So they seek help to ensure a victory. The fallout to this thought process is it forces the opposing side to do the same and more. So back and forth it goes with each side trying to gain the upper hand in the situation till you finally have two ultra super blocks with so much territory that they are too fat to fight.

The sad reality is what we have in the west is two major power houses who don't want to grind any structures, because they are not looking at shooting structures on one moon, or one system, or one constellation, hell... not even one region. They would have to grind several regions to achieve that 'victory'. Even if both sides decided to do real combat (sorry, tossing SRP ships at each other in some scheduled Thunderdome does not count) the outcome would be determined after just a few major battles. The rest of the war would be grinding, grinding, grinding. Straight

Then you would see all kinds of corps and alliances assessing the situation and realizing they are on the losing side and immediately bail out or switch sides for 'safety'. Honestly can you blame them though? Why stay and lose everything asset wise fighting a war you can't win? Which by them leaving/switching sides just makes the decision even more obvious for those who were on the fence.

The real enemy. The true face of evil in all of this is power projection. Why should someone living in Period Basis be keeping tabs on activity in Tenal - much less over there fighting? Not saying that is what is happening right now, but my point is it takes literally minutes to cross the map and project any amount of force you want. All this does is cause an arms race. A race that has no end but constant gobbling up of warm bodies in the name of 'defending your territory'. Territory that simply gets larger and larger as you pull in more and more people. The possible enemy sees all this and they follow with the same philosophy.

PRESTO!!!

You now have the stagnant piece of crap null space you see now. It has been the same song and dance for years now. The same recycled faces and names over and over and over. Sure you will see a once in a while change, but it is either short lived or eventually surrenders to the same beast that has been devouring null for years. It just has become more and more obvious because there is far more people playing. Back in ~the day~ vast amounts of space and limited power projection kept these kinds of things in check. Splash in the various bridging methods, jump drives and other various methods of instantly moving from point A to point B and you hit the wall we are now staring at.

You simply can not take a crap without it being reported across the galaxy on how much and what color withing seconds. We have dozens of highly efficient methods of gathering intel created by the players in combination with absolutely easy methods of in game mechanics to know potential enemy movements. This knowledge fosters a tremendous amount of risk aversion because of that. You have capital ships traveling regions in a matter of just a few minutes to be cyno'd in by some NPC alt on top of a couple low sec dreads - just because. Which of course will send a clear message to become even MORE risk averse.

In closing in this TL;DR post; everyone is to blame for the current situation. Only when CCP addresses the issue by them waking up or us forcing them to do something about it, will it ever change. Until then, enjoy the boredom. Blink
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-03-27 02:19:17 UTC
Pantiy wrote:
the whole donut term is well misleading as hell.



You try so hard.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2013-03-27 02:20:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen: The Blue Donut.
http://i.imgur.com/iBENb1t.png
ohwait


You're really well hidden up there. Cool

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Ryu Ibarazaki
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-03-27 02:41:12 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I never really suggested it was good enough. It would make sense in a PvP game for everyone to shoot anyone not in their alliance, but sadly the vast majority of players in this game are simply afraid of their own shadow and the thought of a challenge. So they seek help to ensure a victory. The fallout to this thought process is it forces the opposing side to do the same and more. So back and forth it goes with each side trying to gain the upper hand in the situation till you finally have two ultra super blocks with so much territory that they are too fat to fight.

The sad reality is what we have in the west is two major power houses who don't want to grind any structures, because they are not looking at shooting structures on one moon, or one system, or one constellation, hell... not even one region. They would have to grind several regions to achieve that 'victory'. Even if both sides decided to do real combat (sorry, tossing SRP ships at each other in some scheduled Thunderdome does not count) the outcome would be determined after just a few major battles. The rest of the war would be grinding, grinding, grinding. Straight

Then you would see all kinds of corps and alliances assessing the situation and realizing they are on the losing side and immediately bail out or switch sides for 'safety'. Honestly can you blame them though? Why stay and lose everything asset wise fighting a war you can't win? Which by them leaving/switching sides just makes the decision even more obvious for those who were on the fence.

The real enemy. The true face of evil in all of this is power projection. Why should someone living in Period Basis be keeping tabs on activity in Tenal - much less over there fighting? Not saying that is what is happening right now, but my point is it takes literally minutes to cross the map and project any amount of force you want. All this does is cause an arms race. A race that has no end but constant gobbling up of warm bodies in the name of 'defending your territory'. Territory that simply gets larger and larger as you pull in more and more people. The possible enemy sees all this and they follow with the same philosophy.

PRESTO!!!

You now have the stagnant piece of crap null space you see now. It has been the same song and dance for years now. The same recycled faces and names over and over and over. Sure you will see a once in a while change, but it is either short lived or eventually surrenders to the same beast that has been devouring null for years. It just has become more and more obvious because there is far more people playing. Back in ~the day~ vast amounts of space and limited power projection kept these kinds of things in check. Splash in the various bridging methods, jump drives and other various methods of instantly moving from point A to point B and you hit the wall we are now staring at.

You simply can not take a crap without it being reported across the galaxy on how much and what color withing seconds. We have dozens of highly efficient methods of gathering intel created by the players in combination with absolutely easy methods of in game mechanics to know potential enemy movements. This knowledge fosters a tremendous amount of risk aversion because of that. You have capital ships traveling regions in a matter of just a few minutes to be cyno'd in by some NPC alt on top of a couple low sec dreads - just because. Which of course will send a clear message to become even MORE risk averse.

In closing in this TL;DR post; everyone is to blame for the current situation. Only when CCP addresses the issue by them waking up or us forcing them to do something about it, will it ever change. Until then, enjoy the boredom. Blink


Sounds like another vote for 'Blue Cookie' to me, lads!
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-03-27 02:48:58 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Even if both sides decided to do real combat (sorry, tossing SRP ships at each other in some scheduled Thunderdome does not count)

Why?

Wormholers bring a fleet of Billion isk T3 ships from the ship replacement program funded by capital escalations. They farm them back in two hours of anomalies, how long is your average call to arms? Do you get to drain the SRP of a Billion isk per CTA on average? (i'm honestly asking, don't know).

Why are Wormholes heralded as the last real PVP in EvE and Null gets bashed? When Wormholes have been nothing but ship replacement program thunderdome. With batphones making sure the participants only get bruised, not crippled or killed.

Someone please explain this to me.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-03-27 03:06:33 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Even if both sides decided to do real combat (sorry, tossing SRP ships at each other in some scheduled Thunderdome does not count)

Why?

Wormholers bring a fleet of Billion isk T3 ships from the ship replacement program funded by capital escalations. They farm them back in two hours of anomalies, how long is your average call to arms? Do you get to drain the SRP of a Billion isk per CTA on average? (i'm honestly asking, don't know).

Why are Wormholes heralded as the last real PVP in EvE and Null gets bashed? When Wormholes have been nothing but ship replacement program thunderdome. With batphones making sure the participants only get bruised, not crippled or killed.

Someone please explain this to me.

The one major reason is no cynos and limitation on mass allowed through a wormhole before it collapses. Granted measures are taken to have an advantage before starting a fight, they are no where near out of control like you find in known space.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-03-27 03:08:01 UTC
is tossing SRP ships at each other in scheduled fights over timers real pvp please enlighten me

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-03-27 03:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
let me list ships that aren't covered fully under SRP by my alliance:

haulers/mining ships
ratting ships
faction battleships, besides machariels flown by characters with specific skills trained (which i have on an alt :smug:)
ships that are Generally Recognized as Awful (i.e. phantasms and other crap)

naturally it's only real pvp if we're in spontaneous fights in battle retrievers since everything not covered fully is covered partially unless it's in those first two categories

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-03-27 03:21:27 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

The one major reason is no cynos and limitation on mass allowed through a wormhole before it collapses. Granted measures are taken to have an advantage before starting a fight, they are no where near out of control like you find in known space.

All that does is enforce the thunderdome by game mechanics limiting the size of the engagement, favoring "billion isk cruisers" over "billion isk capitals". You also have not answered the question.

Why is Wormhole Thunderdome the holy grail of PvP, but Null Thunderdome is a joke that must be frowned upon.
Why is it looked upon with respect when a wormhole corp welps a SRP fleet, but Null residents in SRP fleets are called risk averse care bears and looked down upon.

Why must null go grind structures to capture systems they don't want in the first place to appease spectators, but it's OK for Wormhole corps not to POS bash every system they connect to and set up their own towers.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-03-27 03:25:33 UTC
Andski wrote:
is tossing SRP ships at each other in scheduled fights over timers real pvp please enlighten me

The difference is there is a source of income/territory at stake.

Still, structure grinding is boring if no one shows up to fight. So I guess the edge goes to the meaningless WoT style battles in space that is the Thunderdome.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-03-27 03:28:19 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Still, structure grinding is boring if no one shows up to fight.


is this why you want structure mails removed

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Robus Muvila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-03-27 03:29:36 UTC
000Hunter000 wrote:
If conflict in 0.0 sec is grinding to a halt, at some point the CCP infiltrators in the big alliances will do their thing and then watch the glory of big alliances going up in flames.

It happened before and it will happen again Big smile

Offcourse the rumours of CCP infiltrators are hard to prove Blink


There were CCP infiltrators. Then we paid them off with RMT MONEYS and **MITTANI CONSPIRACY HERE**.

TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages

Alara IonStorm
#57 - 2013-03-27 03:31:33 UTC
New CCP Advertisement.

In EVE you can be anything you want. Build financial empires, explore the far reaches of space, make entire worlds kneel before you or rob from those who do. Criminal, Trader, Hero, Leader, in EVE you can choose who you become and shape the Universe to your will...

...Unless your will is shaping it towards Peace. Don't do that.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-03-27 03:32:25 UTC
Andski wrote:
let me list ships that aren't covered fully under SRP by my alliance:

haulers/mining ships
ratting ships
faction battleships, besides machariels flown by characters with specific skills trained (which i have on an alt :smug:)
ships that are Generally Recognized as Awful (i.e. phantasms and other crap)

naturally it's only real pvp if we're in spontaneous fights in battle retrievers since everything not covered fully is covered partially unless it's in those first two categories

It's only real PvP when you distribute the moon goo to line members based on magical spreadsheets rating contribution to the alliance. Then make them haul and sell it themselves and buy their own ships and haul them to null themselves. Then replace them themselves. Then lose a fight cause a HIC warped off and you lost point on primary, cause he didn't have time to rat that week and can't afford to replace the HIC if he stays another 10 seconds like he's supposed to. Or better yet, you lose a system cause no one wants to log in to fight in a ship that gets blown up all the time while other members take up roles in "safer" ships.

The logic of people who can't understand how or why an organization funded SRP is a good thing.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-03-27 03:37:43 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:

The one major reason is no cynos and limitation on mass allowed through a wormhole before it collapses. Granted measures are taken to have an advantage before starting a fight, they are no where near out of control like you find in known space.

All that does is enforce the thunderdome by game mechanics limiting the size of the engagement, favoring "billion isk cruisers" over "billion isk capitals". You also have not answered the question.

Why is Wormhole Thunderdome the holy grail of PvP, but Null Thunderdome is a joke that must be frowned upon.
Why is it looked upon with respect when a wormhole corp welps a SRP fleet, but Null residents in SRP fleets are called risk averse care bears and looked down upon.

Why must null go grind structures to capture systems they don't want in the first place to appease spectators, but it's OK for Wormhole corps not to POS bash every system they connect to and set up their own towers.

I don't know. I guess some people need to attach the label 'Holy Grail' on to something. Wormholes may not have local (yay!), but that leads to smashing the directional scanner button every two seconds (lame) in another effort to stay safe. With enough people on, you can large bubble any entrances to your system and stick an alt there cloaked with the volume all the way up so when someone jumps in, you hear it. The moment you do everyone gets safe. Another thing is it is common practice to not log in anything as an invader till you have enough people there to do a slaughter. Is that ~good fights~? Of course not.

Maybe it earns that title from people by the simple fact of no cynos. How many fights these days in null and even low sec result in one side starting to lose a sub cap fight and suddely...

C
Y
N
O

Enter on the field, well... anything. Anything from more sub capital ships from a titan bridge, to carriers, to dreads, to super carriers and even titans to body slam onto the "I Win!" button.

Sure it can lead to a massive battle where it makes the news and thousands of people are involved, but how often does that really happen? Once a year?, maybe? Bottom line is there is people who will easily give up on the an annual large battle to have dozens and dozens (even more) good small to medium scale battles without the holy grail of power projection. The cyno.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-03-27 03:38:56 UTC
Andski wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Still, structure grinding is boring if no one shows up to fight.


is this why you want structure mails removed

You see two feet in front of you. I see for miles. Blink