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Eliminating Supercapitals: Nullsec Is Worth Saving
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pussnheels
Viziam
#41 - 2013-03-26 12:49:05 UTC
bad idea , supercaps are one of the cornerstones of nullsec powerprojection and one of the reasong why we train skills
only problem i have with them that there are too many of them

I sense more jealousy in the OP than genuine concerns about the game

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Eve Amada
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2013-03-26 13:41:40 UTC
CCP should just remove supers.

Give players with super carriers 30 bil each for hull & place all their fittings in hanger.

Give players with titans 120 bil each for hull & place all their fittings in hanger.

Refund any skill points ONLY related to supers for reallocation.

Refund corp for all CSAA & CSMA mods, refund corps or players who have capital bpcs/bpos that pertain to supers only.

Refund players for mods that only work on supers.

Problem solved :P

CCP could call the expansion - "Extinction"
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#43 - 2013-03-26 14:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
I'd argue that supercaps aren't the direct problem, but more the titan-bridge, or perhaps moon-goo. Nullsec alliances have learned there isn't much point in risking massive amounts of value in attacks when an unknown amount of ships are likely to immediately appear directly onto your face. Anyone foolish enough to attack their space, and their epic fleets are no-more than one button push away. The old-school dinamics of null-wars are dead. Much easier to all sit in your respective space and make insane amounts of isk from moon-goo. Why risk that when everyone wants to maintain the status-quo?

Its been suggested before, in many different formats, but i believe that a shakeup of null is definately needed. Be that in the form of changes to the titan-bridge mechanics (such as range reduction or mass-limits), or changes to moon-goo (such as depletion and random location respawn).

Some argue that its the sov-grind that prevents alliances from really being bothered to fight, but i've always believed that null-players resist suggested changes because they dont want to risk the blue-donut. They're making far too much isk for that! And without their support, it isn't likely to change anytime soon.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Pantiy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-03-26 15:01:56 UTC
this guy is smoking some of the best **** known to man
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-03-26 15:12:53 UTC
Eight Two wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



Sounds a bit like you don't like working for a specific employer anymore and think it's up to your boss to change your job description.


Who I've worked for in the past is irrelevant really, there's a lot of former nullsec players moving on to greener pastures for the reasons I stated. I have changed my job myself simply by refusing to participate.

Yes, CCP has work at their hands and according to this they are aware of the issues.

In the meantime it's up to the players that have driven this game for years to get that spirit back or fall and crumble under their own weight. That's the way things go always have and always will go. ~ Consequences ~



True, it doesn't matter who you worked for in the past. It matters who you work for now and if you enjoy logging in. It's up to you to determine your level of fun.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tsuya
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2013-03-26 15:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsuya
The ships aren't the problem, the problem is the watch list. If you think local is a perfect intel tool and needs changing, you need to look at the watch list with at least equal scrutiny.

The watch list is the feature that allows supercap fleets to avoid each other, and the core reason that they are not dying in significant numbers.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#47 - 2013-03-26 15:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
iskflakes wrote:
Supercapitals need buffs not nerfs.

The glaring flaws in your alarmist and badly thought out rant article:

* There are already at least 50 classes of ship that specifically counter supercaps, they're called subcaps and they're immune to all forms of supercap weapons
* Supers never die not because they're too strong, but because they're too weak. All it takes is a few subcaps to show up and you're dead. The only way a supers gets used is with 100% safety, which means no fun for anybody.
* The idea that supercaps are concentrated in the hands of "the few" is nonsense, there are thousands of super pilots and anybody can buy one
* The real problem with nullsec is something completely different. The HBC has more supercaps than anybody else, so what's stopping them fighting the CFC? Clearly it's not a lack of supers -- it's a lack of reward and/or vested interest in technetium.


This. Just this.

Nerf moon mining, watch the "Super cap proliferation by a small handful of alliances" problem become a non issue.





Now, what to do with the stupidity factor in Eve given OPs like this one.... cause natural selection just isn't working fast enough....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#48 - 2013-03-26 15:49:06 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Andski wrote:
anyway removing supercaps is just as dumb as buffing them again

Okay, so what do you propose to do so that people actually have incentives to risk their supercaps willingly outside of "oh **** I clicked jump instead of bridge" or "oh **** I didn't align and a hostile dictor bubbled me".


The solution is to make super pilots more self dependent, and less able to be rescued if they make a bad call.

* Give supers & titans the ability to defend themselves against poorly prepared subcaps (this is the main reason they don't get used)
* Add a mass limit to cynos, this makes it harder to subcap blob a tackled super and harder to drop more supers to save some idiot tackled super (this is the reason most sov bloc supers don't die even when they are facing a very well prepared subcap fleet)
* Give supers and especially titans a 50% DPS increase, to make them worth using on structure bashes (right now people will use dreads if there's even a 1% risk, but if there's a 1% risk and a 50% faster structure kill they'll bring out their supers).


-1 to Cynos. Just delete them, allow caps to jump themselves with a capacitor requirements or spool up timers... or both.

And start lobbying for more Capital / Super capital hulls and roles... Because if the sub-cap line was as under developed as the capital ship line, every Eve player would either be flying around in a drone boat Logi, or a Battleship.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Mord Fiddle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-03-26 17:56:06 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
bad idea , supercaps are one of the cornerstones of nullsec powerprojection and one of the reasong why we train skills
only problem i have with them that there are too many of them

I sense more jealousy in the OP than genuine concerns about the game


If I wanted to live in a theme park I'd have joined the blue doughnut. Not like it's hard these days.
Mord Fiddle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-03-26 17:57:33 UTC
Tsuya wrote:
The ships aren't the problem, the problem is the watch list. If you think local is a perfect intel tool and needs changing, you need to look at the watch list with at least equal scrutiny.

The watch list is the feature that allows supercap fleets to avoid each other, and the core reason that they are not dying in significant numbers.


Get rid of supercaps and the watchlist doesn't matter.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-03-26 18:28:37 UTC
Mord Fiddle wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
bad idea , supercaps are one of the cornerstones of nullsec powerprojection and one of the reasong why we train skills
only problem i have with them that there are too many of them

I sense more jealousy in the OP than genuine concerns about the game


If I wanted to live in a theme park I'd have joined the blue doughnut. Not like it's hard these days.

It's easier to whine about said blue doughnut that doesn't actually exist than doing anything about it, apparently.
It's not our fault you're not trying to take our sov.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Twisted Girl
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-03-26 19:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Twisted Girl
Anyone that accually flied a supercarrier knows its very vunerable alone, so everyone packs them together. and have support fleets covering most of their moves. The only thing a bunch of supers can do is "shock n awe" agains people not used to them for 1min before they gotto leave the field or get support in. Any orginized sub cap fleet will **** even 10 supers silly, the only thing supers is good at in those scenarios is to tank:p you basicly becomes a freighter in space without any ability to accually do any relieable damage. and if you try to do any damage you can say goodbye to your 5-600million worth of fighters.

what I agree on however is that its too many of them, and that most of the pilots is too risk adverse. However I cant blame people for beeing risk adverse so only solution is to create less of them. So they dont become just another battleship and a "must have" for every selfrespecting pvp pilot out there.
There is several ways of doing this, some are prob not so great in ccps eyes:

Attention* increase build cost (tho this prob hurts newer players that doesnt alrdy have a stockpile of them)

Attention*add fuelcost (tho this makes no difference for the superrich, like i havent paid for my own fuel for 3 years, and while I use them quiet a bit most supercaps collect dust for 2 weeks , then get put into use of shooting a sbu before returning to semi inactivity, thus increased fuel cost got little effect on them)

Attention*add a new material/or use a existing rare item, that supercaps/titans consume. I would suggest making a new, kinda like oil/energy item, that is rather limited and maybe just found in low sec? to give low sec people some more stuff. by controlling the amouth of energy/oil item in the game ccp can thus effect the amouth of active supers. Maybe make active supers that jump around a lot use a little bit more of this "oil" thing. without this oil the super cant recharge above 70% cap and thus it cant jump.


Also currently reason for that not more supers is dying is due to the orginisation of eve, its basicly darwin in space. Every ADD kid around there that screams more supers need to die, never get into the role of fcing with the power of accually killing supers for a reason. Because to kill non ******** a super require tons of pacience and a ungodly amouth of effort and maybe days or weeks of stalking. Most people that I know of that was/is semi good at stalking supers simply burn out after their 3th or 4th stalking superkill. Ofc there will always be some unlucky/stupid pilots getting caught, but to see tons of supers dying is unrealistic unless you gather 100 nerds without anything else to do than stalking supers 24/7. also the same kids usually never is willing/or noone is willing to follow them to put the required amouth of dps on the field to accually pull it off.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#53 - 2013-03-26 19:19:31 UTC
TLDR of the blog plz so that I may evaluate the elegancy of it

Not today spaghetti.
Mord Fiddle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-03-27 12:12:38 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
[quote=Mord Fiddle]Nullsec, long the public face of EVE Online, is broken.
Oh, and is it just me, or did Hans not have anything of consequence to add to all the words he typed in the comments to your blog?


We've agreed to knock the idea around on a podcast in the near future.
Cascinova Egnald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-03-27 12:44:21 UTC
People afraid to engage with their supers? It is interesting how closely Eve mirrors real life in this instance. During world War II the German and British battleships sat in port most of the war. The reason was because they were such huge expensive ships and no one wanted to risk actually losing them, so they relied on smaller ships to do most of the fighting.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2013-03-27 12:54:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

It's easier to whine about said blue doughnut that doesn't actually exist than doing anything about it, apparently.
It's not our fault you're not trying to take our sov.


Yeah it is your fault, 100%, I'd explain it to you but I doubt you could comprehend it.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Zhade Lezte
#57 - 2013-03-27 15:27:04 UTC
Death to all supercaps.


I've heard enough from other viewpoints to know this may not be a good thing for the game/I don't really understanding everything involved in sov null's problems, but still.

Death to

all

supercaps
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-03-27 15:41:05 UTC
I would think it is kind of hard to see some sov null residents speak about how sov null is all about empire building, while enforcing that with mechanics that are meant to bypass those same borders and make them obsolete.

What's the point of saying "this is my area" if you can easily be across the map where your empire isn't relevant?

As supercaps being the problem with that... well, let's ask the sov residents without it being a matter of people speaking out of turn-

Sov residents, do you think supercaps help build your empire, or help ignore borders by allowing far jumps and power projection to conveniently ignore the limitations of owning that area of space?

If you can own space in the top left of sov space, why should it be possible to logistically move a force so far away?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-03-27 15:50:45 UTC
OP, I get the feeling you haven't read this.


I read your piece last night before seeing this thread, and at first it seemed well-thought-out, you had these fitting real-world references to war, and you used decent grammar/spelling.

But then it's like your brain flew away and you ended up going batshit crazy. You obviously missed more than a few steps in my acclaimed flow chart, not least of which is working out consequences of your idea.


Your lesser offences of:

-Posting something that has been posted 100x before

-Unable to take criticism

and

-Posting in the wrong forum


Well those don't even compare to your grievous offences of:

-Not understanding that there are consequences to your idea

-Refusing to even try to read/understand constructive criticism (for someone with a 'serious' idea your responses in this thread are just trolls, so nice try!)

and last but not least:

-Not actually knowing enough about different facets of the game and/or CCP's overall philosophy to properly weigh your idea (hint: it would never happen, not in a million years, not for a million tears)




Given how seriously you take yourself, I will assume this is not a troll-post/blog/whatever. So therefore, you good sir need to remove the pants from your head so you can see a little better.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-03-27 15:55:29 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
I would think it is kind of hard to see some sov null residents speak about how sov null is all about empire building, while enforcing that with mechanics that are meant to bypass those same borders and make them obsolete.

What's the point of saying "this is my area" if you can easily be across the map where your empire isn't relevant?

As supercaps being the problem with that... well, let's ask the sov residents without it being a matter of people speaking out of turn-

Sov residents, do you think supercaps help build your empire, or help ignore borders by allowing far jumps and power projection to conveniently ignore the limitations of owning that area of space?

If you can own space in the top left of sov space, why should it be possible to logistically move a force so far away?



I don't agree you lumping power projection in with supercapitals as a problem.

Related problems perhaps, but not the same one.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.