These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

why/how does bumping work actually?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Absolon Echerie
Roving Guns Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#1 - 2013-03-26 14:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Absolon Echerie
Now i have been playing and enjoying this game for a bit (still new in eve-terms though) and yesterday i started watching some movies on youtube..

what i found weird is in a certain movie a corp is afraid that a battleship from their "team" is on his way to bump a titan.
So as i understand that would bump the titan out of alignment.

now i also read enough about people getting bumped off gates in gate-camps (i died before i got bumped when i got camped Roll) and that made me wonder...

How come it is possible for a really small ship to have ANY effect on a large ship. to me it would make a lot more sense if the smaller ship would have to evade simply due to the mass difference. I did kind of expected eve to take the mass of a ship in consideration for such mechanics.

So how i see it now that a ship has a imaginary bubble around it, and when 2 bubbles collide both ships go in an other direction. is this about correct or am i missing something?

edit: no reason if this is the right forum place to ask btw Question
Pantiy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-03-26 15:04:37 UTC
eve has imaginary physics
Absolon Echerie
Roving Guns Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2013-03-26 15:15:27 UTC
Pantiy wrote:
eve has imaginary physics


that's a shame.. i see potential in really using mass for the bumping mechanic.. like completely walling in a small ship with some big ones Lol
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#4 - 2013-03-26 15:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Conservation of Momentum. A small impact will have an effect on a large object. A small object impacting at high velocity can have a very large effect on a large object.

Consider that a 100mn Bump stabber traveling at 19km/s has far more momentum (not to mention kinetic energy) than, say, a Freighter, and you can see what will happen.


As it happens, EVE doesn't quite work based on real Physics (shocker), and (from what I understand) judges bumps at least partly based on how far you managed to get into the hit box within the previous tick, but speed still plays a big part in the equation.

You can also just consider how likely it is that a Supertanker could set a course if a Tugboat wanted to stop it from keeping a heading.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#5 - 2013-03-26 15:50:28 UTC
It's a submarine simulator after all.

I'm a bit perplexed by the mechanic myself. I have tried bumping dreads in a frigate just for fun. Ramming them at full speed. Coming in at 3500 m/s and they won't budge. But if I get within 3 kilometres of Titan the whole thing flips on its back faster than the Swedes at Perevolochna.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-03-26 15:56:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Fractal Muse
100MN microwarpdrive adds a whole lot of mass to any ship.

A 100MN microwarpdrive adds 50,000,000kg to a ship.

A titan has a mass of ~2,300,000,000 kg

A typical battleship has a mass of ~100,000,000 kg.

So, a battleship using a 100MN microwarpdrive has ~150,000,000kg of mass or, put another way, just over a 6% of the mass of a titan.

Now, imagine a boat out on the water getting hit by a small boat going at great speed.... you'll now know why titans are impacted by battleships using microwarpdrives.

Edited 'cause I is bad at maths.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#7 - 2013-03-26 16:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
Fractal Muse wrote:
100MN microwarpdrive adds a whole lot of mass to any ship.

A 100MN microwarpdrive adds 500,000,000kg to a ship.

A titan has a mass of ~2,300,000,000 kg

A typical battleship has a mass of ~100,000,000 kg.

So, a battleship using a 100MN microwarpdrive has ~600,000,000kg of mass or, put another way, just over a quarter of the mass of a titan.

Now, imagine a boat out on the water getting hit by a boat a quarter of its size going at great speed.... you'll now know why titans are impacted by battleships using microwarpdrives.




How sure are you that this formula is even applied when bumping?

Why can a frigate traveling a 100 m/s with no MWD flip a titan 90 degrees?

That's like derailing a train with a baseball bat.


Besides a MWD adding weight to a ship is not even close to realistic. it can add force by adding more speed to the existing weight but you can't make a real world comparison with a tugboat that weights 1/4th of a supertanker bumping a super tanker. It wouldn't push the tanker off its course. It would go right through the hull when you apply that much force on such a small surface.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Kryxal
Wing Born Echos
#8 - 2013-03-26 16:23:47 UTC
Besides, the math is off, the 100mn AB/MWD add 50 mil kg, not 500 mil.

Recently, we had an instance of bumping a ship to keep it away from a WH. It was a capital, we were generally in cruiser-sized hulls, but it was ALSO webbed to a fare-thee-well.
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-03-26 16:26:12 UTC
Kryxal wrote:
Besides, the math is off, the 100mn AB/MWD add 50 mil kg, not 500 mil.

Recently, we had an instance of bumping a ship to keep it away from a WH. It was a capital, we were generally in cruiser-sized hulls, but it was ALSO webbed to a fare-thee-well.

Yep, my bad, miss-counted a zero. It's only a 0 after all... ;)

Going up to edit that.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#10 - 2013-03-26 16:37:38 UTC
I think you understand bumping well enough, you don't understand how eve deals with position though.

A frigate can make a titan turn through 180 degrees even if it hits at 100m/s. Why? In eve you ship only has velocity and position, nothing regarding orientation is considered. The client produces a ship based on its velocity, so if a titan is going 0.01 m/s in one direction then goes -0.01m/s it turns 180 quite quickly. This is also the reason why all ships eventually settle to be flat on a certain axis rather than pointing in random directions.

TL;DR the direction a ship model is facing can be misleading and doesn't give much information about what is actually happening (see also: sideways or backwards warping)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-03-26 16:41:12 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Conservation of Momentum. A small impact will have an effect on a large object. A small object impacting at high velocity can have a very large effect on a large object.

Consider that a 100mn Bump stabber traveling at 19km/s has far more momentum (not to mention kinetic energy) than, say, a Freighter, and you can see what will happen.


As it happens, EVE doesn't quite work based on real Physics (shocker), and (from what I understand) judges bumps at least partly based on how far you managed to get into the hit box within the previous tick, but speed still plays a big part in the equation.

You can also just consider how likely it is that a Supertanker could set a course if a Tugboat wanted to stop it from keeping a heading.


Well IRL the first hit would cause damage to both ships. Depending what the tug is made of and how was it was going, it might be only paint damage on the tanker up to a really unlikely hull breach. EvE saves us from that because most of us understand what it would mean in place like Jita 4-4 undock...
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-03-26 16:48:58 UTC
I bumped the Titan in Luminaire and it exploded.


(The approximately 5 hours difference between the bumping and the explosion may indicate that the events were unrelated, but WHO KNOWS?)
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#13 - 2013-03-26 17:22:04 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
sideways or backwards warping


Breaks immersion like a brick through the window.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#14 - 2013-03-26 17:23:39 UTC
100Mn MWD on a Talos going 8500m/s makes Barges, Exhumers, Frieghters, Orcas and station camping BSs squeal with terror.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Nestor II
426 Hemi Powered Mining
#15 - 2013-03-26 18:53:29 UTC
I remember before they changed the MWD's and AB's, you could put all MWD's in your mid slot and fire them all off, now that was fun.

Also went a ship would warp off to a gate and drop out of warp, here would come a BS on the same flight path and bump that little ship doing over 15k m/sec, that little frigate would shoot off and keep going and end up near 200km away from the gate.

Every little thing she does is Magic.
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-03-26 19:20:14 UTC
Nestor II wrote:
I remember before they changed the MWD's and AB's, you could put all MWD's in your mid slot and fire them all off, now that was fun.

Also went a ship would warp off to a gate and drop out of warp, here would come a BS on the same flight path and bump that little ship doing over 15k m/sec, that little frigate would shoot off and keep going and end up near 200km away from the gate.

If you put a 100MWD on a stabber fleet issue you can hit 7000+ m/s or so. Not the same as 15,000 m/s but still a lot of fun to hit small targets at that pace and mass.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#17 - 2013-03-26 22:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Well IRL the first hit would cause damage to both ships. Depending what the tug is made of and how was it was going, it might be only paint damage on the tanker up to a really unlikely hull breach. EvE saves us from that because most of us understand what it would mean in place like Jita 4-4 undock...


RL ships don't have shields that are opaque to matter (or light, for that matter). Also, a well handled tug can impart a lot of force onto the tanker with very little jerk (the derivative of acceleration, that kind-of-sort-of represents what we think of as the "crashiness" of a crash).

Lore says that the shields protect the hull from damage and, incidentally, are why I get to assume the collisions are highly elastic. Also, I'm pretty sure the stresses involved in normal EVE capital ship maneuvering would tear any currently available material apart.



Fractal Muse wrote:

If you put a 100MWD on a stabber fleet issue you can hit 7000+ m/s or so. Not the same as 15,000 m/s but still a lot of fun to hit small targets at that pace and mass.



You can do better. It costs some money, and some prep work, but 19k m/s in an SFI is achievable. (P.S. I wish there were a spoiler tag).

Use Loki Links and Quafe Zero, and get 19,525m/s
[Stabber Fleet Issue, Bump]

Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Auxiliary Thrusters II
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Snake Alpha
Snake Beta
Snake Gamma
Snake Delta
Snake Epsilon
Snake Omega
Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' Evasive Maneuvering EM-705
Zor's Custom Navigation Hyper-Link

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-03-26 23:07:30 UTC
Bumping is one of the lamest mechanics in the game. Would be awesome if one day CCP gets around to reworking it.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#19 - 2013-03-26 23:48:42 UTC
Bear in mind that the physical representation of a ship is just superficial (the server sees ships as nothing more than a "sphere") and that the graphical representation is extremely sensitive to any velocity changes that occur.
So while that Titan appears to drastically move when a frigate bumps it, it actually hasn't moved very much, if at all.

How did you Veterans start?
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-03-27 00:00:59 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Bear in mind that the physical representation of a ship is just superficial (the server sees ships as nothing more than a "sphere") and that the graphical representation is extremely sensitive to any velocity changes that occur.
So while that Titan appears to drastically move when a frigate bumps it, it actually hasn't moved very much, if at all.


That is why you should question your FC if he tells you to align towards a celestial and stop your engines.
12Next page