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President Roden - Your reticence may have cost the Federation Caldari Prime
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Kyraella Myshtana
Eternal Fortress
#1 - 2013-03-25 12:57:39 UTC
CCP Frame wrote:
Update: 11:00 UTC

Front line correspondents are reporting that the State Protectorate defended with 8006 victories and the Federal Defence Union have successfully attacked 7427 engagements.


https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=643052#post643052

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President Roden,

Your timorous reticence regarding the status of dropclones in the Federation directly caused a lack of morale amongst our clone soldiers in the battle for Caldari Prime.

With surface hostilities apparently deescalating, it now appears that Caldari force may have been victorious in this decisive conflict.

You, sir, are personally responsible for the failure of our ground forces to finally reunite Luminaire under Federation law. Had you welcomed the dropclones into the Federation with open arms, providing succor and sanctuary to those suffering from the Sleeper Affliction and a base of operations to those uninfected- there would have been a clear incentive those soldiers to defeat Heth's tyranny. Unfortunately, your cowardice in the face of this issue left the cloned soldiers seeing no difference between the two of you:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=629308#post629308
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=625894#post625894
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=634610#post634610

It may already be too late to welcome them back, but I beg you not to delay in reversing your position. Without the dropclones, the Federation will be helpless against its enemies. Do the right thing, sir.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-03-25 13:28:22 UTC
So, petty gallentean thieves have got their asses handed to them on a silver platter, when they tried to steal our planet again?
These are excellent news!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#3 - 2013-03-25 15:09:52 UTC
It saddens me that so many believe that we only wish to "harvest" them as tools of war. It saddens me even more that, in the case of many of my brethren at least, this may actually be true.

While I heartily encourage the continuing efforts to bring God's Light to the heart & souls of these refugees, we must remember our mission to bring them up from whatever barbarism that clouded their way in the first place... at least as much as is possible. To offer sanctuary from the war to these soldiers and then simply force them right back into war on our own behalf would be rather unbecoming of a civilized people. We must also accept the possible limitations of just how much can actually be done to repair their minds and psyches.

It would thus be pleasing to see some wealthy sports fan step forth and offer them the sort of employment that can allow them to channel their violent & competitive programming into the many varieties of less-than-lethal entertainment so common throughout all of New Eden. What was that one event called... the one they do on the ice planets... hackney? No, that is not it. Alas, I cannot recall the name, but then I am not much of a sports fan. I do hope my point has been made clear, however.

Give them a constructive channel for their instincts and we shall better see our efforts of salvation come to fruition.

The sound of the Amarrian heart
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-03-25 15:24:20 UTC
With the Gallente Navy reigning supreme above the planet, the Federation will secure victory, regardless of the situation on the surface. If the Caldari troops are victorious on the surface. What then? They will be cut off from supplies and reinforcements. The battle for the planet will quickly turn into a siege.

However, Siege warfare will be absolutely disastrous for the civilian population and it is likely it will take decades to recover, if they ever do. While I do not support the use of these cloned drop troops, it may become necessary if it means sparing the lives on millions of innocents, both Caldari and Gallente.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, and I believe recruiting these crazed sub-human clones will be the only way to end the gridlock and begin reconstruction.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#5 - 2013-03-25 20:26:34 UTC
Good to know Caldari forces have continued managing to fend off the Federation Invaders.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:
What then? They will be cut off from supplies and reinforcements. The battle for the planet will quickly turn into a siege.

or the Federation could leave Sovereign Caldari territory to the Caldari as was agreed upon between our two nations a few years ago.
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-03-25 20:46:28 UTC
You seem to be under the impression that all the clone soldiers are of the first generation, Sleeper-based technology sort. They aren't. From all accounts the various empires are trying to round up and contain those soldiers and only those soldiers, while happily enlisting the newer generation that don't seem prone to the "madness" of the first generation soldiers. I've not seen any indications that the Federation, or any other nation for that matter, is marginalizing the newer clone soldiers at all.

As time goes on there will no doubt be more and more of the newer generation of clone soldiers, those free of the "Sleeper Affliction" as you call it. The first generation soldiers will eventually be relegated to their fates. Most of the Empires want to contain or eliminate them, and understandably so. I can't help but wonder if a similar movement toward purging Capsuleers would have taken root if our early complications involved something as unpredictable as sudden violence instead of mindlock.
Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
#7 - 2013-03-25 20:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Nardieu
Xindi Kraid wrote:

or the Federation could leave Sovereign Caldari territory to the Caldari as was agreed upon between our two nations a few years ago.


Treaty of Tierijev?

Oh, I forgot, we don't talk about that Treaty anymore.

Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#8 - 2013-03-25 21:08:12 UTC
Hans Nardieu wrote:

Oh, I forgot, we don't talk about that Treaty anymore.

That would help explain why the Gallente people are allowing Roden to continue lining his pockets by taking wrongful action against Caldari Prime and the Caldari people.


Speaking of which. Whether the Federation wins or loses, Roden wins because he is the one selling the weapons to do it with, and he is the one setting the policy to buy them.
Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
#9 - 2013-03-25 21:13:50 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:

That would help explain why the Gallente people are allowing Roden to continue lining his pockets by taking wrongful action against Caldari Prime and the Caldari people.


Speaking of which. Whether the Federation wins or loses, Roden wins because he is the one selling the weapons to do it with, and he is the one setting the policy to buy them.


You have more hide than a team of elephants.

I deliberately mention the Treaty of Tierijev, signed by the Chief Executive Panel, in which Luminaire VII was agreed to be Federation territory. This is the treaty that the Leviathan violated, and therefore any action against it is legal. It has an ethnic Gallente majority also, so actions in recapturing it are not action against the Caldari people. It's a Gallente planet now, and has been since you people abandoned it.

Things change.

Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#10 - 2013-03-25 21:24:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Hans Nardieu wrote:

You have more hide than a team of elephants.

I deliberately mention the Treaty of Tierijev, signed by the Chief Executive Panel, in which Luminaire VII was agreed to be Federation territory. This is the treaty that the Leviathan violated, and therefore any action against it is legal. It has an ethnic Gallente majority also, so actions in recapturing it are not action against the Caldari people. It's a Gallente planet now, and has been since you people abandoned it.

Things change.



Correction, and a very important one at that: the Treat of Tierijev (which wasn't even a peace agreement, but a cease fire) agreed to Federation occupation and control, but did not acknowledge Federal sovereignty over our Homeworld. Home never has and never will be acknowledged by the Caldari State as anything but Caldari territory, whether it be under occupation or otherwise.

The War Drones On wrote:
after the Iyen-Oursta battle, they used the opportunity to open peace talks between the two obstinate adversaries and were, within six months, able to broker a ceasefire agreement acceptable to both sides. The Federation acknowledged the Caldari state as sovereign and both sides were to retain their original outposts and settlements, except for Caldari Prime, which remained under Federation control.


Modern Era of the Gallente Federation: Peace wrote:
The Gallente Federation would agree to recognize the sovereignty of the Caldari State, and both sides would retain their original outposts and settlements as per the CONCORD-designated borders. The exception was Caldari Prime. Though a point of contention in the negotiations, the majority of the CEP eventually decided pushing for the return of the planet would be far too costly and made the controversial decision to sign it away. It would remain under Federation control, which would be a source of lasting resentment within more militant Caldari factions.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#11 - 2013-03-25 21:32:18 UTC
Ms Myahtana,

I just drop by to point out that the Gallente troops don't do significantly worse than the Caldari. That is to say that if bot would do equally good, you'd expect them to have 7716.5 victories each - the observed victories don't deviate significantly from that. I mean, a simple statistical test like the chi squared does reveal that.

Regards,
N. Mithra
Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
#12 - 2013-03-25 21:57:54 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:


Correction, and a very important one at that: the Treat of Tierijev (which wasn't even a peace agreement, but a cease fire) agreed to Federation occupation and control, but did not acknowledge Federal sovereignty over our Homeworld. Home never has and never will be acknowledged by the Caldari State as anything but Caldari territory, whether it be under occupation or otherwise.


And therefore, the Leviathan attack was in violation of that treaty, as it violated Federal occupation and control.

Federal forces simply enforced treaty conditions, conditions to which the CEP were signatory.

Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#13 - 2013-03-25 21:58:09 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:


Correction, and a very important one at that: the Treat of Tierijev (which wasn't even a peace agreement, but a cease fire) agreed to Federation occupation and control, but did not acknowledge Federal sovereignty over our Homeworld. Home never has and never will be acknowledged by the Caldari State as anything but Caldari territory, whether it be under occupation or otherwise.

Exactly, Caldari Prime is the Caldari people's and following on with the ignoring of treaties, Foirtran signed a treaty that turned control over to the State.

and yet there have been Federal troop deployments to Caldari Prime as of late.
Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
#14 - 2013-03-25 22:09:36 UTC
So if both parties have history of selectively ignoring treaties, what would be the proper way of recognising sovereignty? The Caldari people abandoned the planet two hundred years ago. It's certainly ironic to see Caldari becoming colonisers just when the other empires had more or less given up on the idea.

What does that make the Caldari? Just another land-thief like the Amarrians.

Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#15 - 2013-03-25 22:14:37 UTC
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
It seems nobody has learned a damn thing.

Hans Nardieu wrote:
So if both parties have history of selectively ignoring treaties, what would be the proper way of recognising sovereignty? The Caldari people abandoned the planet two hundred years ago. It's certainly ironic to see Caldari becoming colonisers just when the other empires had more or less given up on the idea.

We did not abandon the planet; we were forced to give it up and we have returned to reclaim it even if the return was much delayed. Caldari prime was always our planet, that's why it should be in our Sovereignty.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#16 - 2013-03-25 22:24:20 UTC
Hans Nardieu wrote:

And therefore, the Leviathan attack was in violation of that treaty, as it violated Federal occupation and control.

Federal forces simply enforced treaty conditions, conditions to which the CEP were signatory.


...and therefore the war, which didn't reach a conclusion until after the 'One Day War', resumed and the State retook the homeworld that they've been saying they would for the past two hundred years.

Hans Nardieu wrote:
What does that make the Caldari? Just another land-thief like the Amarrians.


You can't steal land that is already yours.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
#17 - 2013-03-25 22:26:36 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:

You can't steal land that is already yours.


A land without a people for a people without a land, huh? Reminds me of an old fable.

Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#18 - 2013-03-25 22:42:46 UTC
In the end it doesn't matter (in a sense, because it does matter to most Caldari), the past is the past and we have to deal with the present. At the moment I don't care who ignored what treaty, simply fixing the mess were in now.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Aurelie Severasse
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-03-25 22:45:51 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
In the end it doesn't matter (in a sense, because it does matter to most Caldari), the past is the past and we have to deal with the present. At the moment I don't care who ignored what treaty, simply fixing the mess were in now.


Stop being so reasonable, M. Louvaki. You're robbing Col. Nardieu of the precious fear and doubt he needs to thrive.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#20 - 2013-03-25 23:28:08 UTC
I think you're incorrectly politicizing words. "Occupation" is a Caldari-biased term to describe Caldari Prime from the end of the first war to 110, and is erroneous insofar as the Federal military presence there was not an occupying force.

Traditionally, even before the forming of the State, Caldari Prime has always been sovereign Caldari Prime territory. The CONCORD system refers to each of the four empires in blanket terms without accounting for the fact the Federation is a commonwealth of nations. While this oversimplification can be used with ease in general discussion, it is a nuance that cannot be ignored when you get down to nitty-gritty legal talks.

Anyway, this is a massive deviation from the original topic of the clone soldiers. I really do not know what to make of them, honestly.
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