These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

GEEKS NEEDED! - Titan Falling From the Sky

Author
Hrothgar Nilsson
#41 - 2013-03-24 17:17:57 UTC
Fact of the matter any weapon other than RTKs is pretty pointless to use for a civilization capable of light speed travel.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#42 - 2013-03-24 17:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Imagine several hundred 10 ton projectiles traveling at C that explode like a shrapnel shell a fraction of a second in front of you, breaking into 10,000 one kilogram chunks apiece that continue to also travel at C.

Best of luck even knowing those projectiles are headed in your general direction in the first place, then dodging a few million pieces of 10 megaton speed-of-light space buckshot.


See that is the fun thing about electronic warfare, I already know you're trying to shoot me before you even fired. My hopes is your computer shoots the completely wrong thing. Or even better, how do you know you are about to hit is friendly? IFF singals havent confirmed yet and the return on the sensors isn't all that good of a resolution lighthours out of range.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Hrothgar Nilsson
#43 - 2013-03-24 17:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
You wouldn't know another starship traveling at C is there until it came to a stop right in front of you.

Likewise with the ammunition it accelerates at you.

The fun thing is, you cannot have information until it reaches you.

I think you're a little bit mixed up on the concept. Know how people who don't buckle their seat belts that are involved in accidents often fly through the windshield? Or even how a bowstring, catapult arm, or slingshot band come to a stop but their projectile continues to fly?

That's how an RTK weapon "fired" from a spaceship would work. Just as the spaceship decelerates from C, it lets loose its payload that continues to travel at C while the spaceship decelerates to sublight speeds.
Jarod Leercap
On Three 125
#44 - 2013-03-24 18:14:43 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
You wouldn't know another starship traveling at C is there until it came to a stop right in front of you.

Likewise with the ammunition it accelerates at you.


Quote:
Just as the spaceship decelerates from C, it lets loose its payload that continues to travel at C while the spaceship decelerates to sublight speeds.


While EVE features FTL travel, to size up the universe you need to realize that it features nothing moving through space at anything approaching the speed of light.

EVE features two forms of FTL travel: warping and jumping. Neither involves matter accelerating to or beyond the speed of light. "Warp", as proposed in EVE and several other sci-fi worlds, involves isolating a bubble of space-time around an object and then moving that space-time somewhere else. General Relativity does not impose any speed limits on space, so on this face of it, this seems to be "allowed". However, it is important to understand that the ship itself actually remains stationary in its space-tie "bubble".

Jumping is a different mechanism in EVE and other sci-fi worlds, but it also does not require matter to move through space at non-relativistic speeds. In a nutshell, "jumping" involves connecting two remote parts of space-time together directly. This provides a short cut between those two points, and you can traverse between them at normal speeds and spend less time doing so than light would require to traverse them via another route. This also seems to be allowed by General Relativity, where space is non-Euclidean and the shortest difference between two points is not necessarily a straight line.

That said, scientists are skeptical that either mode of transportation is technically possible. Both ideas, on their face, offer up sufficient paradoxes or such ridiculous energies as to render them either impossible, impractical, or both. But, it's just a game. ;)



With respect to the titan: If it was blown up from geostationary orbit, some of the mass would be accelerated to escape velocity, while some would be directed into a decaying orbit. You'd have some portions that would never hit the planet, some that would hit the planet soon, and some that would hit the planet later.

A lot would depend on the force of the explosion and how the titan was flung apart.
Cyprus Black
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2013-03-24 18:16:11 UTC
I have a middle school education on math and science, plus I watched a few episodes of myth busters and Bill Nye The Science Guy, therefor my opinions are just as valid and in my opinion (without explaining how or why) you are completely wrong.

That's the impression I get from some of these responses in this thread.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#46 - 2013-03-24 18:38:01 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:
I have a middle school education on math and science, plus I watched a few episodes of myth busters and Bill Nye The Science Guy, therefor my opinions are just as valid and in my opinion (without explaining how or why) you are completely wrong.

That's the impression I get from some of these responses in this thread.


I am no expert, but I was pointing in the direction that needs attention thus helping those who have more tools than I do remember something they may have forgotten. You also forgot to add I read popular science articles.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

stoicfaux
#47 - 2013-03-24 18:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Since we switched to planet busters, you wouldn't need to bombard a planet with rocks traveling at a significant portion of c. In Eve, anti-matter is mass produced (i.e. AM ammo.) An FTL ship just needs to warp to the planet and start dropping AM bombs/rounds into the atmosphere. This would require much less effort, time, and aiming over kinetic bombardment.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#48 - 2013-03-24 19:10:07 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Since we switched to planet busters, you wouldn't need to bombard a planet with rocks traveling at a significant portion of c. In Eve, anti-matter is mass produced (i.e. AM ammo.) An FTL ship just needs to warp to the planet and start dropping AM bombs/rounds into the atmosphere. This would require much less effort, time, and aiming over kinetic bombardment.


Tell that to the humans that decided to get their collective asses handed to them by some blue smurfs on Pandoria because they choose a direct assault over a perfectly safe orbital bombardment.

Je suis Paris // Köln // Brüssel // Orlando // Nice // Würzburg, München, Ansbach // Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray

Je suis Berlin // Fort Lauderdale // London // St. Petersburg // Stockholm

Je suis [?]

Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-03-24 19:21:30 UTC
Xearal wrote:
So basicly all the dinosaurs on Caldari Prime will die. Shocked



i think this is the best comment out there Lol

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend

Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#50 - 2013-03-24 19:22:01 UTC
I'm going to assume the desperate last efforts of the crew likely significantly reduced its speed as it fell towards the planet. From what we saw in the DUST servers, most of the titan seemed intact, sticking out of the ground at an angle. I'd argue this in itself is proof that the titan didn't impact with the speed and destructive potential you suggest.

This is probably the point to start listing make-believe science thingies likely to be found on make-believe faster-than-light starships, such as inertia dampeners, gravity-wave-fronts and emergency thrusters. Hell, maybe a caldari titan has all three, and even more! No doubt the brave crew used such things to try to save their lives, as well as their beloved planet. Cool

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#51 - 2013-03-24 19:39:44 UTC
Xearal wrote:
So basicly all the dinosaurs on Caldari Prime will die. Shocked


Along with the Calamari squids
An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Cyprus Black
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2013-03-24 19:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyprus Black
You guys are dumb. Caldari Prime is only 6000 years old, as is the rest of the universe. You know this if you read the bible. Also the eve gate was put there to trick people into thinking the universe is older than 6000 years. Space Satan is deceiving you.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

stoicfaux
#53 - 2013-03-24 20:14:49 UTC
Nerath Naaris wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Since we switched to planet busters, you wouldn't need to bombard a planet with rocks traveling at a significant portion of c. In Eve, anti-matter is mass produced (i.e. AM ammo.) An FTL ship just needs to warp to the planet and start dropping AM bombs/rounds into the atmosphere. This would require much less effort, time, and aiming over kinetic bombardment.


Tell that to the humans that decided to get their collective asses handed to them by some blue smurfs on Pandoria because they choose a direct assault over a perfectly safe orbital bombardment.

Orbital bombardment was vetoed by the PR, Marketing, and Travel departments.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-03-25 01:25:31 UTC
Jarod Leercap wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
You wouldn't know another starship traveling at C is there until it came to a stop right in front of you.

Likewise with the ammunition it accelerates at you.


Quote:
Just as the spaceship decelerates from C, it lets loose its payload that continues to travel at C while the spaceship decelerates to sublight speeds.


While EVE features FTL travel, to size up the universe you need to realize that it features nothing moving through space at anything approaching the speed of light.

EVE features two forms of FTL travel: warping and jumping. Neither involves matter accelerating to or beyond the speed of light. "Warp", as proposed in EVE and several other sci-fi worlds, involves isolating a bubble of space-time around an object and then moving that space-time somewhere else. General Relativity does not impose any speed limits on space, so on this face of it, this seems to be "allowed". However, it is important to understand that the ship itself actually remains stationary in its space-tie "bubble".

Jumping is a different mechanism in EVE and other sci-fi worlds, but it also does not require matter to move through space at non-relativistic speeds. In a nutshell, "jumping" involves connecting two remote parts of space-time together directly. This provides a short cut between those two points, and you can traverse between them at normal speeds and spend less time doing so than light would require to traverse them via another route. This also seems to be allowed by General Relativity, where space is non-Euclidean and the shortest difference between two points is not necessarily a straight line.

That said, scientists are skeptical that either mode of transportation is technically possible. Both ideas, on their face, offer up sufficient paradoxes or such ridiculous energies as to render them either impossible, impractical, or both. But, it's just a game. ;)



With respect to the titan: If it was blown up from geostationary orbit, some of the mass would be accelerated to escape velocity, while some would be directed into a decaying orbit. You'd have some portions that would never hit the planet, some that would hit the planet soon, and some that would hit the planet later.

A lot would depend on the force of the explosion and how the titan was flung apart.


In other words , we are talking about the famous Einstein Rosen bridge , but if thats their ONLY form of FTL travel , that would reckon the question.
How is information instantaneously relayed across the ENTIRE cluster without lag or delay?

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#55 - 2013-03-25 01:41:36 UTC
This assumes that the Titan was knocked completely offline when 'destroyed' of course.

And it's not like Ships in Eve use reaction drives. Remember the Kzinti Lesson. Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#56 - 2013-03-25 02:08:18 UTC
lol @ assuming the titan's density as a piece of solid metal.
Darth Nenny
Nocturnal Tumescence
#57 - 2013-03-25 02:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Nenny
OK, just putting my 2 bob's worth here, id use SUVAT equations 2 work this out
s = distance (metres, m)
u = initial velocity (metres per second, ms^-1)
v = final velocity (metres per second, ms^-1)
a = acceleration (metres per second squared, ms^-2)
t = time (seconds, s)
the equations as follows
v = u + at
s = ut + 1/2at^2
s = vt - 1/2at^2
v^2 = u^2 + 2as
s = ((u + v)/2)t

OK, lets make a few assumptions,
S= 1,000 k's so its 1,000,000 m
U= 0mps due 2 a standing start, it wasn't falling from the sky, it was flying under power above the planet before we start our equations
V= we don't know yet
A= we can assume its 10.3mps thanks 2 a previous post if he is correct (i hope he is)
T= we don't know how long it took so we will have 2 work it out

S = UT - 1/2AT^2 as we know all but T and V, do the equation to find out T then do one of the others 2 work out V
then we can then work out how much force N (newtons) the titan hit the planet at, its easy enough 2 work that out into megajoules or whatever measurement of energy you want to use after that.
FYI the reason i haven't done the equation 4 you is due 2 the fact that i cant remember how to do said equation, its been 15 years since i did physics in high school and i really cant work it out.... maybe I've drank 2 much booze since then lol.
also there is a equation u can use 2 work out the gravity of both objects and the time it would take for them to come together excluding all other factors, but I'm yet to remember that on so u guys are on ya own from here on.

dam my head hurts now :P
good luck

Darth nenny

edit 2 fix a small error
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-03-25 06:33:51 UTC
Darth Nenny wrote:
OK, just putting my 2 bob's worth here, id use SUVAT equations 2 work this out
s = distance (metres, m)
u = initial velocity (metres per second, ms^-1)
v = final velocity (metres per second, ms^-1)
a = acceleration (metres per second squared, ms^-2)
t = time (seconds, s)
the equations as follows
v = u + at
s = ut + 1/2at^2
s = vt - 1/2at^2
v^2 = u^2 + 2as
s = ((u + v)/2)t

OK, lets make a few assumptions,
S= 1,000 k's so its 1,000,000 m
U= 0mps due 2 a standing start, it wasn't falling from the sky, it was flying under power above the planet before we start our equations
V= we don't know yet
A= we can assume its 10.3mps thanks 2 a previous post if he is correct (i hope he is)
T= we don't know how long it took so we will have 2 work it out

S = UT - 1/2AT^2 as we know all but T and V, do the equation to find out T then do one of the others 2 work out V
then we can then work out how much force N (newtons) the titan hit the planet at, its easy enough 2 work that out into megajoules or whatever measurement of energy you want to use after that.
FYI the reason i haven't done the equation 4 you is due 2 the fact that i cant remember how to do said equation, its been 15 years since i did physics in high school and i really cant work it out.... maybe I've drank 2 much booze since then lol.
also there is a equation u can use 2 work out the gravity of both objects and the time it would take for them to come together excluding all other factors, but I'm yet to remember that on so u guys are on ya own from here on.

dam my head hurts now :P
good luck

Darth nenny

edit 2 fix a small error


AH-HA!
I FOUND IT!
COMPLETE caldari prime geological and gravitational data :
Well.. not really complete , but its a NICE start.

Attributes
Planet Type Planet (Temperate)
Density 1467990 kg/m³
Eccentricity 0.014
Escape Velocity 12.248 km/s
Mass Dust 6.445e+24 kg
Mass Gas 8.734e+24 kg
Orbit Period 3785.4 days
Orbit Radius 5.181 AU
Pressure 21.12 kPa
Radius 13,503 km
Surface Gravity 7.618 m/s²
Temperature 297.00 K


Alright then, the planet mass would then by approximately (Neglecting the Equatorial bulge since I am in a state of Apple CIder induced "cannot be arsed"), but here , if you feel like it . Do it
mω2rsinφ=−mg(1/r)(dr/dφ)

r(0)−r(π/2)≈[(ω^2)(r¯^2)]/g¯

Kudos to Kepler

planet mass (M) = 2.0816437768816E+25 kilogram
GEO orbit radius from surface = 13504.618km
If some of ya love integration , you would get a MUCH more accurate result than mine . The following would be slighly overestimating the effects , but meh.

The titan would impact earth at 14343.88176192205 ms-1 (14.3kms^-1)
Considering it was a vertical drop , the sphere of debris would be well within that of a small country , so lets say
The KE of the impact would be around 249982536960Megajoules = 59.747260267686 megaton of TNT .

Well.. then ..
That isn't so bad after all ..
If the magical fusion core doesn't explode

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-03-25 09:03:25 UTC
Darth Nenny wrote:
OK, just putting my 2 bob's worth here, id use SUVAT equations 2 work this out
s = distance (metres, m)
u = initial velocity (metres per second, ms^-1)
v = final velocity (metres per second, ms^-1)
a = acceleration (metres per second squared, ms^-2)
t = time (seconds, s)
the equations as follows
v = u + at
s = ut + 1/2at^2
s = vt - 1/2at^2
v^2 = u^2 + 2as
s = ((u + v)/2)t

OK, lets make a few assumptions,
S= 1,000 k's so its 1,000,000 m
U= 0mps due 2 a standing start, it wasn't falling from the sky, it was flying under power above the planet before we start our equations
V= we don't know yet
A= we can assume its 10.3mps thanks 2 a previous post if he is correct (i hope he is)
T= we don't know how long it took so we will have 2 work it out

S = UT - 1/2AT^2 as we know all but T and V, do the equation to find out T then do one of the others 2 work out V
then we can then work out how much force N (newtons) the titan hit the planet at, its easy enough 2 work that out into megajoules or whatever measurement of energy you want to use after that.
FYI the reason i haven't done the equation 4 you is due 2 the fact that i cant remember how to do said equation, its been 15 years since i did physics in high school and i really cant work it out.... maybe I've drank 2 much booze since then lol.
also there is a equation u can use 2 work out the gravity of both objects and the time it would take for them to come together excluding all other factors, but I'm yet to remember that on so u guys are on ya own from here on.

dam my head hurts now :P
good luck

Darth nenny

edit 2 fix a small error


There is a little tool on the Internet called Physics Calculator .
Now even the silly and drunk and do it Lol .. well... until Euler starts rubbing his rubber ducky on us I guess

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-03-25 09:58:31 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
So y'all want some hard sci-fi? Some really realistic stuff?

Truth is all of these things like lasers, railguns, projectile weapons, missile launchers, armor, shields would be completely and utterly pointless to a society capable of light speed and FTL travel.

As soon as a society is capable of attaining light speed travel, a mass traveling at light speed is the be all and end all weapon. AKA a relativistic kill vehicle.

In the face of that, all these other sci-fi space toys are the equivalent of fighting a modern war with an atlatl and a sling. Or maybe just your fists and teeth.

A 1kg mass traveling at C will hit with the impact of 10.75 megatons. To reach the estimated yield of the 65 milion year ago asteroid, a mere 10 million kg (10,000 tonnes) is all that's required.


Unfortunately nobody in EVE actually travels at the speed of light.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.