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Balance Sensor Strenght for T2 Ships
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#21 - 2013-03-23 20:41:42 UTC
The mechanic of ECM could do with looking at. the whole 'all or nothing' nature is frustrating.

but T2 ships dont need to be particularly resistant to ECM, just like they are not particularly resistant to neuting, webs, scrams, tracking disruptors, dampening or target painters.

this does not mean i am a CCP spai who is pro ECM. it just means ur idea sucks.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nolove Trader
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-03-24 15:46:40 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
Nolove Trader wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:
[
and those skillbooks against ecm are a joke btw, the effect they have when trained to 5 is neglible. on a ship with 16 strenght it goes up to maybe 19. doesnt help much.


If the chance of a sucessful jam was below 100% before the Sensor Compensation skills, they work equally well, no matter the base sensor strength. At Compensation V, the jam-chance will be 16.67% lower. Math and stuff.


I guess everybody in here just loves ECM boats...


I don't love ECM boats, you just fail to understand some of the most basic mathematical concepts. But just for you, I will dig a little deeper into the matter.

At first, let us establish the following items: The Jam-Strength J, the Base Sensor-Strength S, the Jam-Chance C. One has the following equation:

C = J / S

In order for the following steps to be valid we must assume that C is equal or smaller than 1. And to keep things nice and simple, ECCM doesn't exist.

However, now we need to establish the Effective Sensor Strength E, which will replace S in the equation.
One has:

E = S * (1 + [0.04 * Racial_Sensor_Comp_Lvl)

In the following example we will assume that the pilot in question has trained his racial compensation to level 5, resulting in:

E = S * (1 + [0.04 * 5] = S * 1.20 = S * 6/5

Now we will substitute E for S in the first equation, resulting in:

C_eff = J / E = J / (S * &/5) = (J / S) * (1 / [6 / 5]) = (J / S) * (5/6)

5 / 6 = 0.833333, so the Effective Jam-Chance is 16.6667% lower than without compensation skills.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-03-24 17:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Recent changes have maded ECM much more balanced than it used to be - we're even at the stage where we encourage our newbies to fly Celestes rather than Blackbirds these days

Madbuster73 wrote:
Funny how in-Game everybody just HATES ecm and being jammed, and all of a sudden here on the forums everybody loves it.

So either you are all trolling or you are CCP employer alts that are told to praise ecm cuz you dont want to change it.

I dont see any other explanation.


Here's another explanation: your proposal is dumb bittervet "my ship cost more therefore I should win" elitism and doesn't actually fix anything.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#24 - 2013-03-24 17:48:34 UTC
Boost Marauder sensor strength. A T2 ship should never have an attribute that's worse than its T1 version.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#25 - 2013-03-25 10:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
ShahFluffers wrote:
A 20 million ISK interceptor can warp disrupt a 2+ billion isk carrier or drednought indefinitely. Is this also "imbalanced?"

only provided the carrier pilot is dumb and doesn't know how to eve in a carrier.

agreed for the dread tho, not much to be done in such a case.

only ship sensor strenght taht seems to need love to me is marauders, others are fine
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#26 - 2013-03-25 10:50:20 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Sean Parisi wrote:
Somebody told me that majority of these griffins only have about 1000 life. If only there was something like drones that could chase them and either push them off field or kill them.

Pretty much. Five Warrior II drones can send an untanked Griffin into half armor on the first volley. Twisted

damn right, now try 4 warriors and a stasis drone, it will be just enought to slow it down the the 4 remaining warriors can keep up Twisted
DataRunner Attor
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-03-25 14:04:18 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Boost Marauder sensor strength. A T2 ship should never have an attribute that's worse than its T1 version.



That would be incorrect as the T2 version of something further specialize in one area. Unless you are one of those people that also expect their assault ships to perform great E-war cabilities as well, because it T2, and thus, "Better" that's not how it works in eve mate. T1 ships are not fully specialized so they can further deviate from their design, with the use of rigs an so on.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.”
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#28 - 2013-03-25 14:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
DataRunner Attor wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Boost Marauder sensor strength. A T2 ship should never have an attribute that's worse than its T1 version.



That would be incorrect as the T2 version of something further specialize in one area. Unless you are one of those people that also expect their assault ships to perform great E-war cabilities as well, because it T2, and thus, "Better" that's not how it works in eve mate. T1 ships are not fully specialized so they can further deviate from their design, with the use of rigs an so on.

i kinda agree, but a sensor strenght lowered on a PVE specialized boat is clearly working AGAINST it's role, not specializing in it.

as it is currently, any T1 BS with 1 ECCM t2 + relevant ECCM skill at LVL4 still get almost perma jammed in guristas mission, so i can imagine a marauder......

marauders need a cons, i agree, as any T2 they shall be very good at something, but worse in other fields, just that the current situation is NOT the correct one.

currently, i perform better in a megathron or hyperion than i would ever do in a kronos (pve point of view indeed), and i don't even talk about the price, a kronos is just not even an option, and for a bit more isk than a chronos, i can afford a machariel(or vindi to stay blaster sided) wich will outperform it, and from far!
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2013-03-25 14:39:10 UTC
Easy solution give drones sleeper AI in the absence of direct commands.
Mistress Lilu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-03-25 17:42:18 UTC
ECM ships should be nerfed, period.
If you do not agree than you are one of the hobos, no skill pvp players that has a falcon alt or a fleet that uses more than 2 falcons to engage a smaller or a fleet that is the same size as yours.
No ship should be able to perma jam any ship, that is just absurd, it leave no room for pvp, and this game is basicly about pvp, no matter how you argue it.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#31 - 2013-03-25 18:36:49 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:
ECM ships should be nerfed, period.
If you do not agree than you are one of the hobos, no skill pvp players that has a falcon alt or a fleet that uses more than 2 falcons to engage a smaller or a fleet that is the same size as yours.
No ship should be able to perma jam any ship, that is just absurd, it leave no room for pvp, and this game is basicly about pvp, no matter how you argue it.

I agree, using a well-thought-out tactic involving bringing a varied fleet composition featuring countermeasures is completely absurd and leaves no room for PvP.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-03-26 12:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Madbuster73
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Recent changes have maded ECM much more balanced than it used to be - we're even at the stage where we encourage our newbies to fly Celestes rather than Blackbirds these days

Madbuster73 wrote:
Funny how in-Game everybody just HATES ecm and being jammed, and all of a sudden here on the forums everybody loves it.

So either you are all trolling or you are CCP employer alts that are told to praise ecm cuz you dont want to change it.

I dont see any other explanation.


Here's another explanation: your proposal is dumb bittervet "my ship cost more therefore I should win" elitism and doesn't actually fix anything.



It has nothing to do with elitism, just give the T2 ships a LITTLE bit more edge because atm the T2 ships they have the EXACT same sensorstrenght as the T1 variants. shouldnt be there a LITTLE difference?? why else buy T2 ships if T1 ships are just as good??
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#33 - 2013-03-26 17:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Madbuster73 wrote:



It has nothing to do with elitism, just give the T2 ships a LITTLE bit more edge because atm the T2 ships they have the EXACT same sensorstrenght as the T1 variants. shouldnt be there a LITTLE difference?? why else buy T2 ships if T1 ships are just as good??


they are not meant to be better in any way save for the role in which they are specialised.

thats why EA frigs have stronger e-war, assault frigs have more dps and tank, inties have better speed. and it is those qualities that u pay for. u do not pay for an all round upgrade to everything. T2 are not 'i win' ships.

edit - ships that recieve general upgrades are faction ships. but they are not as fast as inties nor as tough as assault ships.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#34 - 2013-03-26 18:16:50 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:

It has nothing to do with elitism, just give the T2 ships a LITTLE bit more edge because atm the T2 ships they have the EXACT same sensorstrenght as the T1 variants. shouldnt be there a LITTLE difference?? why else buy T2 ships if T1 ships are just as good??

Keep in mind that you're comparing post-buff T1 ships, to unchanged T2 ships. CCP has stated that T2 ships are due for minor changes too, and I would expect those to be especially to lock range and sensor strength (especially to rectify some utter nonsense, such as the Executioner targeting farther than the Crusader, or the Augoror having better anti-jam defenses than the Guardian).

As part of his forum post about T1 disruption frigates, CCP Fozzie has said:

Quote:
We also realize that these changes will make the current problems with EAFs even more obvious, and we're putting a lot of thought into them as well.


So... chill out, and wait for them to get around to T2 frigates. Right now they're focusing on battleships and command ships.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-03-27 12:46:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
CCP have also said that we shouldn't expect T2 and larger T1 ships to receive the sort of improvements that were granted to T1 frigs and cruisers since the whole point was to make those hulls more viable and not the 'only fly these if you are poor and/or new' option that they were previously. T2 will become specialised, not be outright buffed, since that would put us right back where we started. Expect some of the T2 hulls to actually get nerfed in some respects.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#36 - 2013-03-27 13:47:38 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
CCP have also said that we shouldn't expect T2 and larger T1 ships to receive the sort of improvements that were granted to T1 frigs and cruisers since the whole point was to make those hulls more viable and not the 'only fly these if you are poor and/or new' option that they were previously. T2 will become specialised, not be outright buffed, since that would put us right back where we started. Expect some of the T2 hulls to actually get nerfed in some respects.


wich make sense to me, i'm all for specializing T2 ships, therefore they need to be better than anything in their speciality, BUT worse in some other fields.

to get back to the topic, i think, as i said before, that the "drawback" of the marauders are working against their speciality, so it needs to be changed, by moving the drawback to another part of the ship, like maybe the agility or speed etc....

regarding the other T2 ships, i find them pretty well balanced except the blackops, and ECM specialized are not overpowerd any more, like they used to be.

i would not say that about EA frigs tho, cause i don't fly them so i don't know about them being balanced or not...

also, the Black ops need a second pass to bring them inline with their roles but this is already planned so, so far so good.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#37 - 2013-03-27 17:33:18 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
It has nothing to do with elitism, just give the T2 ships a LITTLE bit more edge because atm the T2 ships they have the EXACT same sensorstrenght as the T1 variants. shouldnt be there a LITTLE difference?? why else buy T2 ships if T1 ships are just as good??
Maybe because they are better in other areas such as resists, dps, etc..?

A particular T2 ship should be better at its area of specialization, not better at everything. Recons, EAFs should have higher sensor strengths, not HACs and Assault Frigs.
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-04-09 22:52:47 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:
It has nothing to do with elitism, just give the T2 ships a LITTLE bit more edge because atm the T2 ships they have the EXACT same sensorstrenght as the T1 variants. shouldnt be there a LITTLE difference?? why else buy T2 ships if T1 ships are just as good??
Maybe because they are better in other areas such as resists, dps, etc..?

A particular T2 ship should be better at its area of specialization, not better at everything. Recons, EAFs should have higher sensor strengths, not HACs and Assault Frigs.



Thats the whole point..... atm people only fly griffins because they do the job just as well as the kitsune.
So why fly a Kitsune if you can do it in a 1 million isk ship?

make it so that people need kitsune's to jam the more expensive ships...

so expensive ships can get jammed better with expensive ecm-boats.
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