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Should Ganking be profitable?

First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#621 - 2013-03-23 19:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
While one frigate will not be able to take a titan, thousands can.
…as can one.

A Merlin can be pushed up to 333 DPS of Kn/Th damage. A mining-fitted Erebus will have 3.77k EHP against that and a mere 100 DPS of passive regen. Even if we incorrectly assume that this regen will work the same across the entire range of shield values as the Merlin eats through that, thus massively increasing the damage-soaking potential, we're still looking at 971k EHP @ 233 DPS and 2M + 800k EHP @ 333 DPS = 4200s for the shield and 8400s for the rest — a total of 3½h… Twisted

Ph34r teh Merlin!

Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
because its a game it doesnt have to be realistic.
He's saying that it's not realistic in the game either.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
State War Academy
Caldari State
#622 - 2013-03-23 19:49:03 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.

I can answer at least in part,

A: because the ganker has to spend time and effort to carry out the gank, therefore he should have the possibility of reaping the fruits of his labour.
B: because it annoys the hell out of a certain minority of the server population.

I'll ignore B for obvious reasons.

A: It is not a good answer. Effort alone does not warrant a reward. Your victim has spend time and effort, too. It does not need "fruits". All it needs is consequence. This can be a reward, but it can be a punishment, too.

So we should discuss why it needs reward here and why not only punishment.

To me it seems like you want it to be an easy reward, because of the high punishment, and it seems you do this to avoid the purpose of the punishment and to ignore the punishment and to keep doing it.

Further do I see the rewards as the key element for the PvE, but not for PvP. PvP is about power, control, dominance, territory, etc.. I would go as far as saying that gankers are trying to make PvP into PvE and therefore do not deserve a reward, but a punishment.


Nice AnswerBig smile
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
State War Academy
Caldari State
#623 - 2013-03-23 19:49:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
The questions were answered
Prove it. It has nothing to do with people not liking the answers — it has to do with them not finding any answers in your posts.

Quote:
The ones already covered.
Nope. You've just said that there is a balance issue; you have not explained what that issue actually is. So, again: what balance issue?

Quote:
because this is a game I choose game specific example.
…so did he, which is why he rejected your nonsensical titan-vs-frigate comparison (which, btw, only takes about 4h to perform).

already have.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#624 - 2013-03-23 19:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
A: It is not a good answer. Effort alone does not warrant a reward. Your victim has spend time and effort, too.
…and he gets rewarded for it.

Quote:
So we should discuss why it needs reward here and why not only punishment.
For the same reason the miner gets it. Also, for the simple reason that the game is designed to provide one, and no-one has put forward a good reason why this should change.

Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
already have.
Prove it. A simple link will do. Just prove it. Any avoidance or evasion will be interpreted as you admitting that you are a liar, here and everywhere else you've posted in the thread.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
State War Academy
Caldari State
#625 - 2013-03-23 19:54:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
While one frigate will not be able to take a titan, thousands can.
…as can one.

A Merlin can be pushed up to 333 DPS of Kn/Th damage. A mining-fitted Erebus will have 3.77k EHP against that and a mere 100 DPS of passive regen. Even if we incorrectly assume that this regen will work the same across the entire range of shield values as the Merlin eats through that, thus massively increasing the damage-soaking potential, we're still looking at 971k EHP @ 233 DPS and 2M + 800k EHP @ 333 DPS = 4200s for the shield and 8400s for the rest — a total of 3½h… Twisted

Ph34r teh Merlin!

Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
because its a game it doesnt have to be realistic.
He's saying that it's not realistic in the game either.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#626 - 2013-03-23 19:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
TY for the correction on Frigate vs Titan Tippia, the Merlin is obviously OP, NERF MERLINS.

Whitehound wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.

I can answer at least in part,

A: because the ganker has to spend time and effort to carry out the gank, therefore he should have the possibility of reaping the fruits of his labour.
B: because it annoys the hell out of a certain minority of the server population.

I'll ignore B for obvious reasons.

A: It is not a good answer. Effort alone does not warrant a reward. Your victim has spend time and effort, too. It does not need "fruits". All it needs is consequence. This can be a reward, but it can be a punishment, too.

So we should discuss why it needs reward here and why not only punishment.

To me it seems like you want it to be an easy reward, because of the high punishment, and it seems you do this to avoid the purpose of the punishment and to ignore the punishment and to keep doing it.

Further do I see the rewards as the key element for the PvE, but not for PvP. PvP is about power, control, dominance, territory, etc.. I would go as far as saying that gankers are trying to make PvP into PvE and therefore do not deserve a reward, but a punishment.


There is consequence, both for the ganker and the gankee. The victim may well have spent time and effort gathering the resources needed for their ship or cargo, the ship itself or the value of the cargo are their potential reward, they then risk that reward. The chances of being ganked are pretty tiny ergo the consequences of undocking are also pretty tiny.

The ganker spends time and effort setting up the gank, knowing full well that there is a 50/50 chance of no reward at all, they purchase a ship and modules, they organise some friends and a looter, they ship scan potential targets. They gank the target, Concord turn up and BBQ their ships, the looter scoops the loot, if any, and they divide up any resulting ISK.

The consequence for the gankee is provided by the ganker, the consequence for the ganker is provided by Concord, and kill rights, and bounties, and loss of sec status, and being criminally flagged.

The potential gankee is actually getting the lesser consequence, because the chances of being ganked are next to nil, if you're paying attention and don't do silly things, like carry an excessive isk value in cargo.

The ganker gets hit with consequence from multiple directions, and is guaranteed to lose a ship.

Ganking is the farming of stupidity, the sooner CCP makes PvE more like PvP the better, we've already seen them start along this path with the NPC AI.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#627 - 2013-03-23 19:59:48 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.

I can answer at least in part,

A: because the ganker has to spend time and effort to carry out the gank, therefore he should have the possibility of reaping the fruits of his labour.
B: because it annoys the hell out of a certain minority of the server population.

I'll ignore B for obvious reasons.

A: It is not a good answer. Effort alone does not warrant a reward. Your victim has spend time and effort, too. It does not need "fruits". All it needs is consequence. This can be a reward, but it can be a punishment, too.

So we should discuss why it needs reward here and why not only punishment.

To me it seems like you want it to be an easy reward, because of the high punishment, and it seems you do this to avoid the purpose of the punishment and to ignore the punishment and to keep doing it.

Further do I see the rewards as the key element for the PvE, but not for PvP. PvP is about power, control, dominance, territory, etc.. I would go as far as saying that gankers are trying to make PvP into PvE and therefore do not deserve a reward, but a punishment.


There is consequence, both for the ganker and the gankee. The victim may well have spent time and effort gathering the resources needed for their ship or cargo the ship itself or the value of the cargo are their potential reward, they then risk that reward for their efforts by undocking. The chances of being ganked are pretty tiny. The consequences of undocking are also pretty tiny.

The ganker spends time and effort setting up the gank, knowing full well that there is a 50/50 chance of no reward at all, they purchase a ship and modules, they organise some friends and a looter, they ship scan potential targets. They gank the target, Concord turn up and BBQ their ships, the looter scoops the loot, if any, and they divide up any resulting ISK.

The consequence for the gankee is provided by the ganker, the consequence for the ganker is provided by Concord, and kill rights, and bounties, and loss of sec status, and being criminally flagged.

The potential gankee is actually getting the lesser consequence, because the chances of being ganked are next to nil, if you're paying attention and don't do silly things, like carry an excessive isk value in cargo.

The ganker gets hit with consequence from multiple directions, and is guaranteed to lose a ship.

Ganking is the farming of stupidity, the sooner CCP makes PvE more like PvP the better, we've already seen them start along this path with the Drone AI.



Evil evil drone ai.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#628 - 2013-03-23 20:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Murk Paradox wrote:


Evil evil drone ai.


My bad Oops that should have said NPC AI Roll, a prime example of my fingers running ahead of my brain.

At the OP (I ain't typing out your new name, it's nearly as bad as your old one)
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
State War Academy
Caldari State
#629 - 2013-03-23 20:06:26 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.

I can answer at least in part,

A: because the ganker has to spend time and effort to carry out the gank, therefore he should have the possibility of reaping the fruits of his labour.
B: because it annoys the hell out of a certain minority of the server population.

I'll ignore B for obvious reasons.

A: It is not a good answer. Effort alone does not warrant a reward. Your victim has spend time and effort, too. It does not need "fruits". All it needs is consequence. This can be a reward, but it can be a punishment, too.

So we should discuss why it needs reward here and why not only punishment.

To me it seems like you want it to be an easy reward, because of the high punishment, and it seems you do this to avoid the purpose of the punishment and to ignore the punishment and to keep doing it.

Further do I see the rewards as the key element for the PvE, but not for PvP. PvP is about power, control, dominance, territory, etc.. I would go as far as saying that gankers are trying to make PvP into PvE and therefore do not deserve a reward, but a punishment.


There is consequence, both for the ganker and the gankee. The victim may well have spent time and effort gathering the resources needed for their ship or cargo the ship itself or the value of the cargo are their potential reward, they then risk that reward for their efforts by undocking. The chances of being ganked are pretty tiny. The consequences of undocking are also pretty tiny.

The ganker spends time and effort setting up the gank, knowing full well that there is a 50/50 chance of no reward at all, they purchase a ship and modules, they organise some friends and a looter, they ship scan potential targets. They gank they target, Concord turn up and BBQ their ships, the looter scoops the loot and they divide up any resulting ISK.

The consequence for the gankee is provided by the ganker, the consequence for the ganker is provided by Concord, and kill rights, and bounties, and loss of sec status, and being criminally flagged.

The potential gankee is actually getting the lesser consequence, because the chances of being ganked are next to nil, if you're paying attention and don't do silly things, like carry an excessive isk value in cargo.

The ganker gets hit with consequence from multiple directions, and is guaranteed to lose a ship.

Ganking is the farming of stupidity, the sooner CCP makes PvE more like PvP the better, we've already seen them start along this path with the Drone AI.

Correct there are consequences but those dont seem to be balanced at the moment. The mechanics and balance favor the ganker as it is now. Why should there be even a 50/50 chance? Your chances increase to get ganked the more you play the game. it may never happen but chances are sooner or later it can and will always depending on the circumstances. Let say I see you in hi-sec and get 4 of my buddies to help gank you. I would only do this for spite or revenge because I know it would not be cost effective to kill you low value hi-dps ship.

Being a pirate should come with a cost and even a price.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#630 - 2013-03-23 20:08:22 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:

Correct there are consequences but those dont seem to be balanced at the moment. The mechanics and balance favor the ganker as it is now. Why should there be even a 50/50 chance? Your chances increase to get ganked the more you play the game. it may never happen but chances are sooner or later it can and will always depending on the circumstances. Let say I see you in hi-sec and get 4 of my buddies to help gank you. I would only do this for spite or revenge because I know it would not be cost effective to kill you low value hi-dps ship.

Being a pirate should come with a cost and even a price.



And it does, those questions "have already been answered".

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#631 - 2013-03-23 20:10:35 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Correct there are consequences but those dont seem to be balanced at the moment. The mechanics and balance favor the ganker as it is now.
In what way?

Quote:
Why should there be even a 50/50 chance?
Because it means you can make a good profit from a good target, and there's just a good a chance that the Loot Fairy will hate your guts. It's a nice compromise between risk and reward.

Quote:
Being a pirate should come with a cost and even a price.
It already does.

Also, I notice you're not responding to my post… what's the matter? No proof?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#632 - 2013-03-23 20:13:39 UTC
He still never posted those "repeated answers" he said he did =(

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Whitehound
#633 - 2013-03-23 20:14:49 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
There is consequence, both for the ganker and the gankee. The victim may well have spent time and effort gathering the resources needed for their ship or cargo, the ship itself or the value of the cargo are their potential reward, they then risk that reward. The chances of being ganked are pretty tiny ergo the consequences of undocking are also pretty tiny.

The ganker spends time and effort setting up the gank, knowing full well that there is a 50/50 chance of no reward at all, they purchase a ship and modules, they organise some friends and a looter, they ship scan potential targets. They gank the target, Concord turn up and BBQ their ships, the looter scoops the loot, if any, and they divide up any resulting ISK.

The consequence for the gankee is provided by the ganker, the consequence for the ganker is provided by Concord, and kill rights, and bounties, and loss of sec status, and being criminally flagged.

The potential gankee is actually getting the lesser consequence, because the chances of being ganked are next to nil, if you're paying attention and don't do silly things, like carry an excessive isk value in cargo.

The ganker gets hit with consequence from multiple directions, and is guaranteed to lose a ship.

Ganking is the farming of stupidity, the sooner CCP makes PvE more like PvP the better, we've already seen them start along this path with the NPC AI.

You are not addressing my point. You are trying to avoid it.

I agree that future PvE should be more like PvP, but also future PvP should be less like PvE. Both, PvE and PvP need to progress and not just one of them.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#634 - 2013-03-23 20:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Whitehound wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
There is consequence, both for the ganker and the gankee. The victim may well have spent time and effort gathering the resources needed for their ship or cargo, the ship itself or the value of the cargo are their potential reward, they then risk that reward. The chances of being ganked are pretty tiny ergo the consequences of undocking are also pretty tiny.

The ganker spends time and effort setting up the gank, knowing full well that there is a 50/50 chance of no reward at all, they purchase a ship and modules, they organise some friends and a looter, they ship scan potential targets. They gank the target, Concord turn up and BBQ their ships, the looter scoops the loot, if any, and they divide up any resulting ISK.

The consequence for the gankee is provided by the ganker, the consequence for the ganker is provided by Concord, and kill rights, and bounties, and loss of sec status, and being criminally flagged.

The potential gankee is actually getting the lesser consequence, because the chances of being ganked are next to nil, if you're paying attention and don't do silly things, like carry an excessive isk value in cargo.

The ganker gets hit with consequence from multiple directions, and is guaranteed to lose a ship.

Ganking is the farming of stupidity, the sooner CCP makes PvE more like PvP the better, we've already seen them start along this path with the NPC AI.

You are not addressing my point. You are trying to avoid it.

I agree that future PvE should be more like PvP, but also future PvP should be less like PvE. Both, PvE and PvP need to progress and not just one of them.


But I also answered your question WHound. I didn't avoid it. I don't really think Jonah avoided it either.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#635 - 2013-03-23 20:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Correct there are consequences but those dont seem to be balanced at the moment. The mechanics and balance favor the ganker as it is now.


How does the fact that the victim has complete control over the possibility of being ganked for profit favor the ganker?

Quote:
Why should there be even a 50/50 chance? Your chances increase to get ganked the more you play the game.


Since we're talking only of being ganked for profit, the only time your chances increase is when you're being stupid. You have complete control over the possibility of being ganked for profit.

Quote:
it may never happen but chances are sooner or later it can and will always depending on the circumstances. Let say I see you in hi-sec and get 4 of my buddies to help gank you. I would only do this for spite or revenge because I know it would not be cost effective to kill you low value hi-dps ship.


Since I don't fly gank magnets in HS (or when I do, I fly them intelligently, i.e. in a manner that prevents ganking them), your revenge/spite would cost you money. So it wouldn't be profitable, so there's no problem and you're conflating two different issues.

Oh, and every character I gank with is < -5, so killing them in HS will not cost you anything more than the ammo you use.

Quote:
Being a pirate should come with a cost and even a price.

It does. It costs you your ship. In most cases, that cost is higher than the potential loot of the target, so the gank either doesn't happen or isn't profitable.

Once again:
Why shouldn't you be able to steal someone else's unprotected valuables for profit?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#636 - 2013-03-23 20:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:

Let say I see you in hi-sec and get 4 of my buddies to help gank you. I would only do this for spite or revenge because I know it would not be cost effective to kill you low value hi-dps ship.


Go for it, I don't gank on this character, so you're unlikely to find me in a low value high DPS ship, you're much more likely to find me hauling or doing some PvE, does that tempt you?

It'll never happen though, you don't have the balls to try, or the organisational skills to succeed.

Consequence wise, I'd rally up some friends and come down on you like a ton of bricks, repeatedly, because I have ingame friends that are quite accomplished at it, hell they'd do it for the lols, I'd just need to supply the ships and modules. And I'd do it regardless of consequence from Concord, my lovely 5.0 sec status is there to burn.

I'd welcome the kill rights that come with the gank, I can think of several people who would gladly take them off my hands, even at a price.

But first you have to catch me, secondly you're unlikely to make a profit because A: I don't AFK haul, B: I fit a tank to everything, C: I never carry enough value in cargo to make any attempt profitable, D: I don't undock in things I can't afford to lose.

So I challenge you, put your money where your mouth is, prove that ganking is unbalanced and entirely in the hands of the ganker.

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
State War Academy
Caldari State
#637 - 2013-03-23 20:34:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[
Also, I notice you're not responding to my post… what's the matter? No proof?

Why should or would I when I have already said I wasnt going to keep answering the same questions repeatadly.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#638 - 2013-03-23 20:37:12 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Why should or would I when I have already said I wasnt going to keep answering the same questions repeatadly.
So you're a liar, then.
It would have been so easy for you to show that you weren't and to prove us all wrong, and instead you opted to out yourself.

Well, that's nice to know for future reference, if nothing else. A bit sad, but still nice to know. Cry
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#639 - 2013-03-23 20:37:42 UTC
This topic has become primarily trolling and repetitive posts. It is therefore being locked.

ISD Tyrozan

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