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[Updated] How to repopulate nullsec - a question for highsec/WH players (and CCP)

First post
Author
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2011-10-29 07:47:23 UTC
Well, I'm half way through my 1 month resub special and I have yet to see any people that I used to know log in to actually FIS. My old corp friends seem to have stopped logging in as have all the people I knew in other corps. Can't rejoin my old corp since nobody is there to even take an application so I been looking at other groups but their recruiters aren't even logging in. I have been checking in multiple time zones and sending emails but people just aren't there. Have low sec and null depopulated that much since July? I'm beginning to think people are just logging in for forum pvp and to check skills. I think CCP has more problems than just tweeking the game if this is how things have become. Moving people around is the least of your concerns.
Pent'nor
#522 - 2011-10-29 12:24:50 UTC
I'm a highsec person and i'm not sure if i would ever move out to null, but here are some things that would make me think about it.

1. Npc missions
2. An early warning system(structure) that would alarm a system if a non blue enters
3. Ability to have the sov controller pay for and place npc's that guard structures/mining areas/and ships
4. research agents or some ability to make my own datacores from a research station

Things I don't like
1. I hear that mining could make alot of isk but it is unwise to level it up to that point.
2. It's probably not wise to keep your personal bpo's out there, so i'd be hulling bpc's pretty often.
3. I don't like taking orders. I'm an independent.
4. I'm a casual player, and i imagine i would have to be hardcore if a war brokeout, otherwise i may loose all my stuff.
5. The constant threat of being ganked by lone or group roaming fleets

Basically i'd want the sov controller make it like highsec and then some. If there was a sov controller that mimics a highsec empire and was fairly stable, then i'd really have to think about going out there to check things out. It's probably a bad idea, but that is what it would take for me.

(Note I have never been to null and i imagine that I will always live in highsec and join faction warfare when i have lots of isk to blow, which is probably the best thing considering my play style)
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#523 - 2011-10-29 13:06:18 UTC
Pent'nor wrote:
I'm a highsec person and i'm not sure if i would ever move out to null, but here are some things that would make me think about it.

1. Npc missions
2. An early warning system(structure) that would alarm a system if a non blue enters
3. Ability to have the sov controller pay for and place npc's that guard structures/mining areas/and ships
4. research agents or some ability to make my own datacores from a research station

Things I don't like
1. I hear that mining could make alot of isk but it is unwise to level it up to that point.
2. It's probably not wise to keep your personal bpo's out there, so i'd be hulling bpc's pretty often.
3. I don't like taking orders. I'm an independent.
4. I'm a casual player, and i imagine i would have to be hardcore if a war brokeout, otherwise i may loose all my stuff.
5. The constant threat of being ganked by lone or group roaming fleets

Basically i'd want the sov controller make it like highsec and then some. If there was a sov controller that mimics a highsec empire and was fairly stable, then i'd really have to think about going out there to check things out. It's probably a bad idea, but that is what it would take for me.

(Note I have never been to null and i imagine that I will always live in highsec and join faction warfare when i have lots of isk to blow, which is probably the best thing considering my play style)


lone wolf only works if pvp. you cannot lone wolf yourway into 0.0 and expect anything of the above. 0.0 is for fighting AND meanwhile making some isk BUT you got to go for the fights. Anyone that does the reverse alone will only end up dead. It may work a bit in 0.0 empire space but still be frustrating hard for lone wolf miner. You can do NPC missions in 0.0 empire space but you will have to join some kind of large entity. NPC missions are guarded by large powerful and agressive entities.
But if you join those entities, you will have to take orders and work in group for the best of all.
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Doomheim
#524 - 2011-10-29 19:32:47 UTC
Re: mining bots: Maybe ccp could implement some kind of Captcha verification when activating a mining laser / strip miner on a given roid for the first time?

"You must register your prospecting claim to this asteroid through concord before you may proceed. Below is a key code generated based upon the location, mass, and composition of this asteroid. Please submit this key to proceed."

Then you would see the captcha image and a dialogue box.

Could maybe be expanded to allow sov holders to collect taxes on mined asteroids in the future? (Really though, I would just like to stop some of the botting.
Isabella Thresher
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#525 - 2011-10-29 20:08:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

What you're asking for is almost impossible, I'm afraid. The only way to "fragment the sov map" politically is to do it physically as with W-space.

See here for more discussion about this explaining why: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7358&find=unread

i do not agree. nothing is impossible.
give small groups of players a chance to easily invade and hold a system, and fragmentation will start on it's own. similar to posfueling, but on a much smaller timescale.

just a random idea: systems need constant maintenance of some sort. e.g. scan a hidden place, extract some special items, feed a sov structure with it. this has to be done at least 2 to 3 times a week or your sov is gone, maybe even more often.

with such a system, it would be impossible, even for large corps, to hold large areas of space. no one will do that kind of work to hold a large amount of systems for a long time.

it would however easily be possible for smaller groups of players to hold just one system. 5 people can easily do that kind of maintenance in a round-robin scheme, and as long as they do, the system is theirs (big defence bonuses or whatever). make system ownership not solely dependent on the power of your supercap fleet, but on the work required to actually hold sov in a system.

couple that with 0.0 industry/market changes and fragmentation ahoy!

(this, to repeat myself, was just a random idea. i'm sure there are more ideas like this)
Zaraza Enhanced
Leaves of Yggdrasil
#526 - 2011-10-29 21:01:28 UTC

Didnt read all 27 pages but ...........As i see it EVE has way to much 0.0 territory . And low sec too ..

My solution would be :

-> make all low sec -> high sec

-> make 1/3 to half of 0.0 sec ->low sec

->then you will have less 0.0 space ->more players/system ->problem solved
XIRUSPHERE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#527 - 2011-10-31 07:26:00 UTC
Personally I love lowsec, have been to -10 and back now more times than I can remember and have enjoyed it. I have lived in null a few times and have no desire at all to go back. Politics, drama, playing the game as a second job and killmail mining where targeting an enemy and pressing f1 to watch him melt in 2 seconds if your lucky enough not to be in a slide show is hardcore pvp. The other part was the massive bot abuse in null, blatantly obvious and not a **** is given, not even by CCP.

There is no real incentive to get a highsec player out there, you can make a better income than most null dwellers in highsec as an individual and obtain practically anything you desire without the bullshit.

Giant napfest that exist on vast swaths of empty space living on tech welfare does not make null appealing in the slightest. There is truly no dynamic that encourages smaller scale warfare or combat that doesn't border on tedium.

Right now null is where a lot of players wait around to go to, spend a lot of time waiting for it expecting to find out what the games all about only to be sorely disappointed.

The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.

One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.

pussnheels
Viziam
#528 - 2011-10-31 08:18:11 UTC
Zaraza Enhanced wrote:

Didnt read all 27 pages but ...........As i see it EVE has way to much 0.0 territory . And low sec too ..

My solution would be :

-> make all low sec -> high sec

-> make 1/3 to half of 0.0 sec ->low sec

->then you will have less 0.0 space ->more players/system ->problem solved



Don't take away low sec , low sec is fun more fun than null sec and besides i love the thrill when they hunting me while i am in my explorer arbitrator


So no leave low sec alone
, it is thrilling and a good income if you know what you are doing

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Sirius Cassiopeiae
Perkone
Caldari State
#529 - 2011-10-31 08:22:20 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
This thread is pretty awesome. You guys will get a few 0.0 changes this winter, smaller ones that should improve quality of life.

One thing I'm thinking about, but not entirely sure about is this: Putting bounties on drones instead of minerals. Mining used to be a viable way of making money in nullsec, but the increase in available minerals has driven the price down. I'm wondering if putting bounties on drones won't give mining a bit of a revival and put some life back in 0.0.



yea... that... remove mineral drops from drones... AttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttention
XIRUSPHERE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#530 - 2011-10-31 08:56:18 UTC
I think null should function like the most grand space RTS ever, something like sins of a solar empire. Tie sov to a cultural statistic representative of all accomplishments from battle to mining, research and industry. Destructible player built monuments, research centers, orbital foundries home to exotic materials and methods that can produce ships and modules that carry a chance of technological innovation.

Slightly better gear and ships or perhaps role modifications not typical of the hull all by chance slightly influenced by skill. Technology and materials exclusive to null that cannot make it's way into low or highsec. Id like to see a prestige system in combat where the potential cultural sphere of influence rewards grow less and less as the size of battle goes up. A chance for many small hard fought skirmishes to make the biggest impact.

Systems with dynamic anomalies much like the ones found in wormholes that can influence the time, place, and pace of battle but not static. Null should be something to aspire to, a place of exclusive content and mechanics that encourages total cooperation.

The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.

One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.

Dr NAthan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#531 - 2011-10-31 10:36:55 UTC
Sort out the capital mess and make Null sec more profitable.

Seriously though, the Cap blob fest that is now Null sec is pathetic.

A gang of 20+ of us were chased for 30+ jumps out of null sec because 2/3 God damn T3's were cynoing Super/Sub caps in on engage over and over.

That was the last roam I went on about 2/3 months back, I just gave up.

Whatever happened to the strategic part of Null sec PvP?
Alen Dee
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#532 - 2011-10-31 12:14:01 UTC
Null sec isn't a goal for me, i don't wanna go there because there is no way to survive here if you aren't part of one of the biggest alliance of the game.

There is no way i could play with people i don't like so i'm gonna stay in high sec.

If it's possible to make more money in null sec than in high sec, good for you, but i don't care.
As long as you don't understand that this game is just a game and it must be design to provide fun to players, you'll forget something : if a lot of players don't wanna go in low/null sec why would you care about that, just give them more stuff to do in high sec.

I hope you'd be able to understand what i mean, english isn't my native language.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#533 - 2011-10-31 12:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
I'm pretty old now :>


Emprie space has some advantages i do not get in 0.0.

I get instant pvp if i like to. No Fleet forming ups etc etc. Empire wardec is pvp @ undock.
Ability to be self sufficient without long transport routes.
Not much structure or administration needed. No Bills, No Sov. No Paranoid ppl.

What would make 0.0 more appealing...
- Removal of sov space (No hughe fees, no empererors, no complicated structures)
- No Local
- Jump mass Limit on mass leaving/entering system via gate or portal.
- I am 100% reliant on alliance/corp with transports if i do not want to spent ages for transports.
- Too time consuming because of logistic, scouting, organisation.

My Visions for 0.0
-WH Space is a much ebtter design.
-Easy Logistics
-Difficult Blob Warfare
-Team driven Content
-Not that time consuming.

I will never more enter 0.0. I've seen it all and i definitly prefer a less time consuming and more relaxing way of life.
WH Space > 0.0
Avila Cracko
#534 - 2011-11-02 15:25:01 UTC
bump for removing mineral drops from drones!

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Feilamya
#535 - 2011-11-02 19:52:30 UTC
Alen Dee wrote:
Null sec isn't a goal for me, i don't wanna go there because there is no way to survive here if you aren't part of one of the biggest alliance of the game.


1. Fit cloak
2. LOL alliances
3. Drop cloak again. Most of 0.0 is empty anyway
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#536 - 2011-11-02 20:07:23 UTC
Isabella Thresher wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

What you're asking for is almost impossible, I'm afraid. The only way to "fragment the sov map" politically is to do it physically as with W-space.

See here for more discussion about this explaining why: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7358&find=unread

i do not agree. nothing is impossible.
give small groups of players a chance to easily invade and hold a system, and fragmentation will start on it's own. similar to posfueling, but on a much smaller timescale.

just a random idea: systems need constant maintenance of some sort. e.g. scan a hidden place, extract some special items, feed a sov structure with it. this has to be done at least 2 to 3 times a week or your sov is gone, maybe even more often.

with such a system, it would be impossible, even for large corps, to hold large areas of space. no one will do that kind of work to hold a large amount of systems for a long time.

it would however easily be possible for smaller groups of players to hold just one system. 5 people can easily do that kind of maintenance in a round-robin scheme, and as long as they do, the system is theirs (big defence bonuses or whatever). make system ownership not solely dependent on the power of your supercap fleet, but on the work required to actually hold sov in a system.

couple that with 0.0 industry/market changes and fragmentation ahoy!

(this, to repeat myself, was just a random idea. i'm sure there are more ideas like this)


Your proposed system would be trivially easy for large alliances to do with alts.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#537 - 2011-11-02 20:10:38 UTC
Dr NAthan wrote:
Sort out the capital mess and make Null sec more profitable.

Seriously though, the Cap blob fest that is now Null sec is pathetic.

A gang of 20+ of us were chased for 30+ jumps out of null sec because 2/3 God damn T3's were cynoing Super/Sub caps in on engage over and over.

That was the last roam I went on about 2/3 months back, I just gave up.

Whatever happened to the strategic part of Null sec PvP?



Go roam RA space. They've become a bit less adventurous with their supers lately Cool

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Alain Badiou
Gradatim Ferociter
#538 - 2011-11-02 20:32:05 UTC
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Adelphie wrote:


The problem is there is no "alliance incubator" in eve anymore - so it would be interesting to understand what mechanics could be engineered to make this a reality again.



That's why I'd suggest making nullsec vulnerable to roaming gangs.

Currently, relatively small numbers of players can control huge parts of 0.0, because timers give them time to move the blob into position - they know the time and place where the enemy will strike (or blueball).

If e.g. moonmining arrays could be hacked by a small gang that BO-bridges in a couple of blockade runners to haul the stuff off without any timers or structure grind at all, 0.0 alliances would depend on having their space populated in order to quickly form up small defensive gangs, trying to intercept the raiders and giving them a hard time.

If they don't, their unpopulated systems will end up with a negative cash balance, which would in turn motivate 0.0 alliances to make themselves more attractive for potential inhabitants. So instead of having renters, paying billions to run their bots, they'd end up having to introduce replacement programs, educational services etc... to keep their space populated with actual humans.



Devs should read this post.


Second this post. Force alliances to defend all their space. Allow small groups to interact effectively on sov mechanics.
Justin Credulent
Luv You Long Time
#539 - 2011-11-02 20:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Credulent
People generally want what is in their best interest, and pursue avenues that either offer the most attractive risk-to-reward ratio, or the most effort-to-reward ratio.

It's not rocket science: Null-sec does not pass risk-benefit analysis, and/or is not in players' best interest to visit. Therefore, players avoid null-sec. Not only does null-sec fail risk-benefit analysis, but it's also very inaccessible, further discouraging players - every system is claimed by someone, and generally they are paranoid, untrusting people who are very jealous of the vacuum they inhabit. In short: Null-sec is just not worth the risk and effort.

What would get me into null-sec? Simple changes: Making null-sec more rewarding, breaking up the current monopolies, and then instating game mechanics that would prevent those monopolies from forming in the future. I understand; EVE is "Capitalism 101" and monopolies are a valid part of capitalism... however, EVE is also a game that is meant to be fun, and it's also touted as a "sandbox". Having 3 or 4 mega-Coaliations owning all of null-sec reduces the sandbox effect: Those areas of space might as well not even exist for 95% of the player-base. It also makes null-sec players bored: When null-sec players cry about hi-sec, what they're really expressing is their desire for more null-sec. Therefore, CCP should add more null-sec.

Most of EVE should be a null-sec sandbox. But it should be accessible via "safe zones" - leave Empire space alone, leave lo-sec alone... but expand null-sec outward, add more systems/density, and intersperse it with hi-sec zones which are accessible via gigantic "wormhole gates" located in hi-sec. In effect, EVE should be huge swathes of null-space with hi-sec areas mixed within.

I drew a picture: Imagine the grey areas are Empire space/hi-sec. The red area is low-sec, and the black lines represent the path of the gigantic "wormhole jumpgates". I left null-sec white. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/41879035/what.png

Null-sec needs to be broken up, that's all there is to it. There's no reason that 1 Alliance should claim a huge area of space, and then form a "Coalition" with x-number of other Alliances, thereby effectively owning half the map. This reduces the sandbox.

There needs to be a smaller hard-cap on the number of members in a Corporation, and a smaller hard-cap on the number of member Corps in an Alliance. 1301 people in a single Corporation is just a ridiculous number, and 10 Corporations in an Alliance is similarly nonsense (13k people? Really?). I won't propose exact numbers here, but in my fantasy, there's around 100 members max for a Corp, and 5 Corporations max for an Alliance. This sounds fairly reasonable to me. And there needs to be a limit to the number of Alliances that can be set blue by any given Alliance, and it must be consensual - what I mean is, when an Alliance sets another Alliance blue, the second Alliance must consent and also set them blue. I won't propose exact numbers, but 2 or 3 Alliances forming a coalition sounds about right to me. This means you have 3 groups of 500 players coming together to form a group containing 1,500 players.

I'm sure a lot of you will think this sounds insane. But it has real life precedents. And there's a method to the madness: I would propose, along with limits to the numbers of members an Alliance can hold, that an Alliances needs to have a cap on the number of systems it can claim. Maybe 1 Corp can claim 1 - 3 systems, and an Alliance grows by having more members Corps. This would encourage an Alliance to seek member-Corps, and due to additional game mechanics I will propose, Corps will want to seek membership in an Alliance.

Corporations operating in null-sec would have the option of installing "guns" near their gates. These "Corp-guns" will not be very powerful - it may discourage a group of 2 or 3 Frigates from exploring, but would do little against a larger gang. However, an Alliance would be able to set up much stronger guns. In short, null-sec space that is owned by players would be fortified to a certain extent.

This will encourage smaller, and hence, more active groups of players. There would be real conflict over resources, and there would be more strategy behind lighting a cyno.

When an Alliance is formed, it can have (rent/own, whatever), 1 station that functions similarly to current hi-sec stations, except there's no market and there's only basic services (storage/repair/clones). This station will be placed in the "Alliance Hub", which is basically the capitol system of the Alliance. Capitol systems will be more heavily fortified. So while it may be easy to take space, it's harder to completely remove an Alliance from null-sec.

I believe all these changes will encourage null-sec play. It will be possible for an Alliance to form in hi-sec and then push it's way through lo-sec into null-sec and claim space, because Alliances and Coalitions will be limited. This will make null-sec the wartorn wasteland that we all want, while at the same time giving players access to profitable areas of space that they feel represent realistic goals.


I'm sure many people will disagree with me (mostly established null-sec Corps who are enjoying a cushy existence). But, as it stands, null-sec is a wasteland that offers players little incentive to explore. And until something is changed, null-sec will remain that way. Period.

Null-Sec needs to HTFU and stop crying to CCP. If null-sec wants PvP, they need to stop being carebears and start fighting eachother - after years of bot-mining, they have the ships!

Ambassadeur Ur-Shulgi
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#540 - 2011-11-02 20:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ambassadeur Ur-Shulgi
Lack of profit keeps me out of Null sec.

If you count in the risk Vs Reward highsec is by far the best place to live.

I can make 70-100m per hour mostly Risk free in highsec.

If you count in travel times, hiding from hostiles time, fleeting up for gangs and gatecamps And transporting loot to sell etc tells me Its not worth too bother with . I need to make about 400m per hour In Null too make it worth doing. And Im not sure even that would be enough.

Its Time invested for most amount of ISK and with as little risk as Possible for me
And highsec is way to profitbal or NULL sec needs to get buffed.

I personaly think we need a NULL BUFF... If you could make an easy 400-500m per hour out there I would not mind giving it a shoot again.

But as it is now NOT WORTH THE TIME OR EFFORT for the crappy rewards...