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Incursion ship question: HAC or BS?
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Jane Schereau
#1 - 2013-02-27 18:06:56 UTC
Thinking of creating a training plan for running incursions. Will be armor tanked, just in case it makes a difference.
Once upon a time, I read that for incursions, HAC and BS are similar to each other. Dunno where I read that, of if it is even true. All the info I find these days is about BSs.

I'm guns guy, so its either a Deimos or a Mega for me. I really dislike bigger ship. I mean, really dislike them. Is the large hp on a BS necessary for incursions? Or are the roles a HAC plays just different.

Sure, training for a BS is quicker than training for a HAC. But not sure if it is worth it for me to train BS skills when the only thing I'll use them for is incursions, which is not all I'll do.

So, can a HAC be used as effectively as a BS in an incursion, or not?

Google has been little help to me in this subject, but I'll gladly accept links to places where this is explained.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2013-02-27 18:31:19 UTC
I am not the most knowledgeable person on Incursions, but I doubt you going to get the same dps out of a HAC and then be able to project that DPS far enough. Sure you could chase down the NPC but when you webbed you will go nowhere fast.
I don't see the aversion to BS, they used in just about everything eve.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#3 - 2013-02-27 21:04:45 UTC
good luck finding a fleet in a deimos. Its just not a rail ship by any stretch of the imagination. Command Ships might fit your bill, and are accepted into incursions I believe. But even then astarte has the same problems as the deimos. Amarr and Minmatar ships have it better. Medium rails are part of the problem, but its also that gallente do not have a good platform for medium rails.


and yeah, the high EHP of battleships is kind of a big deal. Its not an absolute requirement, as non-BS are viable, but its a major plus.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

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Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#4 - 2013-02-27 21:29:53 UTC
In Vanguard sites there are some waves that can exceed 6k alpha, so the problem is going to be getting resist and buffer high enough to survive till the loigs can get some reps on you. As a rule T3s were used rather extensively early on due to thier naturally high resists, I dont see why a HAC wouldn't survive if fitted correctly, the problem is why would an FC pick a 600dps HAC with a 5k buffer over a 1100dps BS with a 13k buffer.

In assault sites rat alphas can exceed 9k and in HQ's 12k is pretty common. As a reference a 85k Nightmare went through armor to structure and POD in less time than the logis had to lock him 3 days ago.

Not trying to rain on your day, just giving you some facts to think about, For armor fleets Join TDF public channel 'The Ditanian Fleet' and see if they can give you some more specifics.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-02-27 22:28:20 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
In Vanguard sites there are some waves that can exceed 6k alpha, so the problem is going to be getting resist and buffer high enough to survive till the loigs can get some reps on you. As a rule T3s were used rather extensively early on due to thier naturally high resists, I dont see why a HAC wouldn't survive if fitted correctly, the problem is why would an FC pick a 600dps HAC with a 5k buffer over a 1100dps BS with a 13k buffer.

In assault sites rat alphas can exceed 9k and in HQ's 12k is pretty common. As a reference a 85k Nightmare went through armor to structure and POD in less time than the logis had to lock him 3 days ago.

Not trying to rain on your day, just giving you some facts to think about, For armor fleets Join TDF public channel 'The Ditanian Fleet' and see if they can give you some more specifics.


That 6k alpha is from Tamas, it won't hit for 6k on cruisers...

The reason nobody will take hacs these days isn't its buffer, but it's [lack of] dps. Why would a vg fc take you when there are legions and bhaalgorns around?
Jane Schereau
#6 - 2013-02-28 04:22:48 UTC
Thank you for your replies, quite informative. For some odd reason, I was convinced blasters were used in incursions.

So no HAC then. I had no plans to invest any sp into rails, most especially larges. Is it even possible to do incursions in a T1-gun Mega?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-02-28 05:04:59 UTC
possible but you're not likely to be invited into pug fleets

Art of Explosions
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-03-14 14:55:59 UTC
Jane Schereau wrote:
Thank you for your replies, quite informative. For some odd reason, I was convinced blasters were used in incursions.

So no HAC then. I had no plans to invest any sp into rails, most especially larges. Is it even possible to do incursions in a T1-gun Mega?


Blasters are.... Large neutrons blasters with Null... on vindis, that fit faction webs and web 90% at 14km (higher with boosts).
They are also sometimes used on rokhs, again with Null, so that the optimal is significant.

But.... you only want a few blasterboats in a fleet... many vindis are asked to refit to rails when the fleet has enough balster vindis for popping frigs.

In HQ sites, they are also good for tower bashes, as you just MWD to the tower, and then just pour DPS onto the tower at optimal with 0 traversal (after taking out some waves of sansha ships)
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#9 - 2013-03-15 18:41:50 UTC
T3's take about the same time to train as a HAC's yet have a bit better DPS & ALOT better buffer... a HAC is viewed as poor man's T3
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Fin Annages
Microwave Tea Company
#10 - 2013-03-17 15:17:56 UTC
Jane Schereau wrote:
Thank you for your replies, quite informative. For some odd reason, I was convinced blasters were used in incursions.

So no HAC then. I had no plans to invest any sp into rails, most especially larges. Is it even possible to do incursions in a T1-gun Mega?


T1 Megas will find fleets, but be prepared to wait a while.
Vanguard sites, you will be fitting Blasters. Assaults and HQs, you will be asked to refit to a sniper fit as a Mega.

If you can afford it, use a Navy Mega. I'll eve mail you a fit.
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-03-19 06:12:41 UTC
I had great success with an AB Sac for VG fleets, however this was a year ago in Valhalla so I'm not sure on the scene these days. Great resists, EHP and a web usually got me picked
BlackPyroStorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-03-19 15:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: BlackPyroStorm
honestly just go for a BS, HAC do have enough tank for most sites but lack any kind of significant dps and/or damage projection.
Also if aiming toward mega hull I'd advise using rails even meta 4 while training for the t2 large blasters. Blasters are pretty bad without the ability to use t2 null ammo (once again the issue is for damage projection) and at least with the rails it won't affect your skillplan and you'd still be somewhat useful to a fleet.
Jane Schereau
#13 - 2013-03-20 02:32:00 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
T3's take about the same time to train as a HAC's yet have a bit better DPS & ALOT better buffer... a HAC is viewed as poor man's T3


True, though the Proteus does not seem to be an excellent rail ship either...
Jane Schereau
#14 - 2013-03-20 02:35:32 UTC
BlackPyroStorm wrote:
honestly just go for a BS, HAC do have enough tank for most sites but lack any kind of significant dps and/or damage projection.
Also if aiming toward mega hull I'd advise using rails even meta 4 while training for the t2 large blasters. Blasters are pretty bad without the ability to use t2 null ammo (once again the issue is for damage projection) and at least with the rails it won't affect your skillplan and you'd still be somewhat useful to a fleet.


At this point, I'm leaning very much towards training up for logi, to keep my skills focused on cruiser hulls... And it might be fun!
Kryxal
Wing Born Echos
#15 - 2013-03-20 20:07:08 UTC
If you're thinking logi, T3 is also a very viable choice. You'll need cruiser 5 for both, and the various subsystem prereqs are things you probably want anyway.

Are people more inclined towards Guardian or Oneiros in incursions these days? It's something to consider.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-03-21 00:01:56 UTC
Jane Schereau wrote:
BlackPyroStorm wrote:
honestly just go for a BS, HAC do have enough tank for most sites but lack any kind of significant dps and/or damage projection.
Also if aiming toward mega hull I'd advise using rails even meta 4 while training for the t2 large blasters. Blasters are pretty bad without the ability to use t2 null ammo (once again the issue is for damage projection) and at least with the rails it won't affect your skillplan and you'd still be somewhat useful to a fleet.


At this point, I'm leaning very much towards training up for logi, to keep my skills focused on cruiser hulls... And it might be fun!


Logis find fleets far easier than DPS and support ships. Logistics pilots who know how to play are rare and hard to come by, so when someone puts in the channel that they have a logi ship and logi 5 they get spammed with fleet invites.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#17 - 2013-03-21 02:11:34 UTC
A HAC in Incursions? Lol....