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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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FIxing Moon Mining, breaking the Blocs

Author
JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#1 - 2013-03-15 10:18:34 UTC
One of the major issues creating stagnation in 0.0 is Moons, there is no doubt about it (as well as the issues with Sov grinding, but I'm not going to focus on that as moaning about it only seems to come from Mittens, Shadoo and Montalio AFTER they have secured all the space they want / need).

So CCP want to give small gangs a way to affect the game, to affect larger alliances, to really hit their wallets unless the alliance actively fights them. They also want to encourage bottom up incomes rather than top down.

They want to do this in an easy way that doesn't require major staff resources to implement.

It's really simple...

Introduce a new module. This could be Barge only, or fittable on any ship, or even go on a tech 2 version of the Venture (but probably OP for what I have in mind).

This module allows active mining of a Moon. The implementation of how the mining is achieved isn't overly important, as long as it involves a long cycle that is broken by warping away.

One method would be a beam (not preference for me), another would be the firing of a probe like Moon scanning that returns an amount of ore after a set period by creating a jet can in space just like PI. However, the jet can won't be created if the probe firer leaves grid or cloaks at any time, as this breaks the comms between the ship and the mining probe.

Cycle time should be around 15 minutes (maybe reducible to 10 mins or so with skills, and have mining implants / boosters affect time too) so there is plenty of risk / reward there and the Moon's owners (if they are around) have time to locate and destroy / force off the miners.

Here is the kicker though - whatever Ore is returned by the probe is taken from the Moon's income on it's next production cycle. For sake of simplicity, let's say a probe returns 100 ore for a single cycle (not going to go into the economics side, CCP can balance the amounts etc) that ore would no longer be generated by the POS's mining on the next cycle.

Alternatively, (and this is probably the better option) any active mined ore builds up as a 'levy' that, until it is bought off by the POSes mining, results in a 50% loss (% adjustable for balance) of ore amount per 1 hour cycle. So 1,000 units of Ore mined would take 20 hours to buy off to get full production back.

It would be fine for the POS owner to get a warning message when siphoning was occurring - that would promote fights, raise risks and give a reason for having the POS there in the first place.

This would go a long way to 'fixing' the stranglehold the large blocs have on moons that sit at the other side of Eve from their homes, and force them to actively defend them. It would break the OTEC monopoly currently being exerted by allowing non-aligned input of high ends into the market. And it would create more emergent game play and FIGHTS.

I welcome people's thoughts, especially CCP's.
Cy-nogene Midgard
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-03-15 10:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cy-nogene Midgard
Comet Harvesting will be more fun than moon harvesting.

Celestial in Eve are too static.

Probe a comet, warp to them, follow her at high speed ( 3000m/s) , scan her and then harvest her with new ship (kind of destro like).

Comet speed avoid other ship to follow, only the new ship design to

Much better than to stay static on moon orbit with prob Roll


Coment content some Moon material / ice / rare ore yield
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#3 - 2013-03-15 10:46:36 UTC
I gave an module idea on the F&I new modules post.

It was a module for rorquals and orcas that would allow you to mine moons. I think this would be a better solution than having small ships to have the modules. more risks cause of the bigger ships and bigger modules also means bigger rewards Blink

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#4 - 2013-03-15 14:59:44 UTC
Cy-nogene Midgard wrote:
Comet Harvesting will be more fun than moon harvesting.

Celestial in Eve are too static.

Probe a comet, warp to them, follow her at high speed ( 3000m/s) , scan her and then harvest her with new ship (kind of destro like).

Comet speed avoid other ship to follow, only the new ship design to

Much better than to stay static on moon orbit with prob Roll


Coment content some Moon material / ice / rare ore yield


Much harder to implement though in terms of resource commitment.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#5 - 2013-03-15 15:30:26 UTC
JD No7 wrote:
Cy-nogene Midgard wrote:
Comet Harvesting will be more fun than moon harvesting.

Celestial in Eve are too static.

Probe a comet, warp to them, follow her at high speed ( 3000m/s) , scan her and then harvest her with new ship (kind of destro like).

Comet speed avoid other ship to follow, only the new ship design to

Much better than to stay static on moon orbit with prob Roll


Coment content some Moon material / ice / rare ore yield


Much harder to implement though in terms of resource commitment.

Not to mention the fact that some frigates dont reach that speed with a MWD on them...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2013-03-15 19:24:43 UTC

This is very similar to an idea I proposed a few months back...

Check it out:

Moon Mining Deflector

The biggest difference, my suggestion is an anchorable module that you anchor on grid with the POS, which steels a portion of the harvested moongoo every hour.

I like how your proposal encourages you to have a "ship" to do the steeling, but the reality is the POS owner won't respond "quickly" (in general). Also, since it's not a static, in space object, it will be trivially easy to avoid the POS owner when they come to stop you. I feel the POS owner should get something to shoot at if they travel to the defense of the POS!!!

Cyprus Black
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2013-03-15 19:32:16 UTC
The hardest part is pressing the seriousness of the issue to CCP.

The CSMs aren't going to do it. Look who they represent: Nullssec large alliances who either directly or indirectly benefit from a broken system.

We need CSM members who aren't incredibly biased about this problem and actually take it seriously. If we get that then we need to convince them that they need to really push this broken system fix onto CCP.

It's a long uphill battle, but it's for the health of the game.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#8 - 2013-03-18 14:14:50 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This is very similar to an idea I proposed a few months back...

Check it out:

Moon Mining Deflector

The biggest difference, my suggestion is an anchorable module that you anchor on grid with the POS, which steels a portion of the harvested moongoo every hour.

I like how your proposal encourages you to have a "ship" to do the steeling, but the reality is the POS owner won't respond "quickly" (in general). Also, since it's not a static, in space object, it will be trivially easy to avoid the POS owner when they come to stop you. I feel the POS owner should get something to shoot at if they travel to the defense of the POS!!!



The whole point is that the Moon's owner should be living in the space anyway. The warning mail is a luxury that shouldn't be necessary if the alliance is living in it's space!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2013-03-18 17:32:12 UTC
JD No7 wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This is very similar to an idea I proposed a few months back...

Check it out:

Moon Mining Deflector

The biggest difference, my suggestion is an anchorable module that you anchor on grid with the POS, which steels a portion of the harvested moongoo every hour.

I like how your proposal encourages you to have a "ship" to do the steeling, but the reality is the POS owner won't respond "quickly" (in general). Also, since it's not a static, in space object, it will be trivially easy to avoid the POS owner when they come to stop you. I feel the POS owner should get something to shoot at if they travel to the defense of the POS!!!



The whole point is that the Moon's owner should be living in the space anyway. The warning mail is a luxury that shouldn't be necessary if the alliance is living in it's space!


EvE doesn't work like that... Moons are randomly located, often in crappy systems, and/or systems that just wont serve as a place to live and truly operate out of. And POS's, which are used to mine moons, are static structures created without the need, nor desire, to constantly visit/patrol.

Furthermore, there are several things wrong with your proposal:
A.) The thief is in a non-combat ship. This essentially means they will run rather than fight, because they aren't capable of fighting. And frankly, it's hard to catch a person that doesn't want to "fight", which means you won't generate hardly any fights with your new mechanic. My idea created a stagnant object in space that is easy to attack... and can be deployed by a combat ship ready to fight... this is much more likely to generate a fight!

B.) The moon cycles ever hour, and at the end of a cycle it is magically populated with 100 units of moongoo. Interfacing between the moon harvester and your mining cycle when they are on completely different times is very difficult.

C.) Your backlog levi idea will probably be abused. What happens to a levi when a tower is taken down? Are there limits to how much can be mined at a time? There are a few can of worms here...
JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#10 - 2013-03-19 00:37:08 UTC
Regarding the random moon locations - that's the point. Alliances shoudn't be able to project power across the other side of the EVE universe. If an entity can make it not worth them holding the moon unless they defend it (ie the moon and the actual resources, rather than the POS) then we can see an end in sight for OTEC and the like.
JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#11 - 2013-03-19 00:39:25 UTC
And so what if the thief won't fight? It wont get any minerals either then. This would equate to AFK cloakies sitting in ratting systems.

The point is the alliance would have to defend the moon!
Vi'ach
#12 - 2013-03-19 00:53:43 UTC
JD No7 wrote:
The point is the alliance would have to defend the moon!


If there is a POS at the moon, the POS owner can simply set the defence standings so that it attacks any thief's? No need to defend the moon.

Quote:
>>Attack if standing is lower than #### <<
If any pilot with a standing (from your corporation to them, or from your corporation to their corporation) lower than the value you type in the box gets in range of the POS then the tower will attack.


Since most warp-in points will be at/near the POS, boom.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#13 - 2013-03-19 01:11:48 UTC
So it would require a cloaky ship to create a new warp in point, or a cloak on your mining ship to get off grid/out of range of the POS guns
JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#14 - 2013-03-19 08:45:09 UTC
Very easy to make off grid points near the moon.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#15 - 2013-03-19 09:05:06 UTC
Cy-nogene Midgard wrote:
Comet Harvesting will be more fun than moon harvesting.

Celestial in Eve are too static.

Probe a comet, warp to them, follow her at high speed ( 3000m/s) , scan her and then harvest her with new ship (kind of destro like).

Comet speed avoid other ship to follow, only the new ship design to

Much better than to stay static on moon orbit with prob Roll


Coment content some Moon material / ice / rare ore yield


This would be more fun imo :)
but 3 k speed is a bit OP very few ships could keep that speed, imo t2 ventures or mining barges should be able to mine the comets with perhaps special mining gear or standard strip miners and t2.

They could spawn like gravimetric sites but since comet is moving would involve more player input to mine and make it more intresting.

CCP could keep moons like they are at same time imo so you get some variety in the way you can mine.
JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#16 - 2013-03-22 13:30:51 UTC
Comet mining would be fun, both ideas together would be better!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#17 - 2013-03-22 15:48:05 UTC

You need to understand the context of: "CCP wants to give small gangs a way to affect the game, to affect larger alliances, to really hit their wallets unless the alliance actively fights them." CCP wants conflict drivers.... both large scale and small scale. Most conflict drivers are Large Scale (POSes, Sov, Stations), and currently the only small scale conflict driver is catching a ship in space. Most ships can be classified as combat ready or combat inept... and combat inept ships always run away from conflict. Your idea puts another combat inept ship in space, in a position that makes it impractical to catch, with the purpose of undermining a legitimate conflict driver (Moon mining POSes).

JD No7 wrote:
And so what if the thief won't fight? It wont get any minerals either then. This would equate to AFK cloakies sitting in ratting systems.

The point is the alliance would have to defend the moon!


Nullsec activity should be about conflict...

Currently, to mine a moon, you have to setup a POS, which is a static asset that anyone can attack. It has an RF timer to allow both sides to defend it, and results in a very nice conflict driver...

Do you know why people AFK cloak in ratting systems? Because the omniscient local make it very hard to catch a ratter. In a similar measure, rogue moon thieves would be very difficult to catch. Your idea is NOT a conflict driver, which is one of the major purposes of moongoo. That's why it's important that the "thief won't fight".

And as for, "The point is alliances would have to defend the moon!". Guess what, alliances already defend their moons, that's why the valuable moons are generally held by large alliances with lots of power. While I'm all for an idea to help the little man stick it to an alliance, I think there is a line of tedium that should not be crossed.

-- With your current suggestion, the ONLY way to prevent someone from stealing your moongoo is to park a gang in system 24/7. That is tedious! You need to balance between defense and offense in this game, and your suggestion makes it virtually impractical to defend a moon mining operation.... How can you possibly think that is a good thing?
Ander Fred
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-03-24 10:20:49 UTC
Ok let's just look at a few numbers. First off is that in order to prevent total market destruction, the system would have to limit it to one mobile harvester OR one static harvester. Next, the static harvester represents a significant investment compared to a mining barge, and therefore should be better. It's inherently better due to 'AFK mining', but let's not be stupid, bots would come along. So then in order to offset the lack of danger compared to a POS, the mobile solution would have to mine at around 40-60% yield of a POS. So let's look at some numbers then:

Remember that Tech is still heavily influenced by OTEC, providing an artificially high value(75,000 at time of writing). If we run the value into the moon harvester yield (for a POS) the figure is 125,000 ISK/minute (this figure is so horribly wrong in reality, but this is theory). Taking 40-60% of that gives bounds of 50,000 - 75,000 ISK/minute. A laughably small sum by any standards.

The conclusion therefore is that to implement this would be a waste of time. The volumes involved and their prices do not stack up to being financially viable. If you wanted to make moon goo production viable (comet or otherwise) then POS moon goo mining would have to be nerfed into the ground (or other income streams nerfed into the ground and back out the other side).
JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#19 - 2013-03-24 11:09:40 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

You need to understand the context of: "CCP wants to give small gangs a way to affect the game, to affect larger alliances, to really hit their wallets unless the alliance actively fights them." CCP wants conflict drivers.... both large scale and small scale. Most conflict drivers are Large Scale (POSes, Sov, Stations), and currently the only small scale conflict driver is catching a ship in space. Most ships can be classified as combat ready or combat inept... and combat inept ships always run away from conflict. Your idea puts another combat inept ship in space, in a position that makes it impractical to catch, with the purpose of undermining a legitimate conflict driver (Moon mining POSes).

JD No7 wrote:
And so what if the thief won't fight? It wont get any minerals either then. This would equate to AFK cloakies sitting in ratting systems.

The point is the alliance would have to defend the moon!


Nullsec activity should be about conflict...

Currently, to mine a moon, you have to setup a POS, which is a static asset that anyone can attack. It has an RF timer to allow both sides to defend it, and results in a very nice conflict driver...

Do you know why people AFK cloak in ratting systems? Because the omniscient local make it very hard to catch a ratter. In a similar measure, rogue moon thieves would be very difficult to catch. Your idea is NOT a conflict driver, which is one of the major purposes of moongoo. That's why it's important that the "thief won't fight".

And as for, "The point is alliances would have to defend the moon!". Guess what, alliances already defend their moons, that's why the valuable moons are generally held by large alliances with lots of power. While I'm all for an idea to help the little man stick it to an alliance, I think there is a line of tedium that should not be crossed.

-- With your current suggestion, the ONLY way to prevent someone from stealing your moongoo is to park a gang in system 24/7. That is tedious! You need to balance between defense and offense in this game, and your suggestion makes it virtually impractical to defend a moon mining operation.... How can you possibly think that is a good thing?


They are good points. Making the ship based harvesting like a Siege cycle could work.
Ander Fred
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-03-25 00:54:35 UTC
I don't think you appreciate the scale of this. Look at my above post. Posting a ship to steal the goo is a horrible, dull, no interaction, low yield activity. It just *screams* to be botted. The 'massive income' that moons generate is due to them being 'AFK' income streams, not the actual value of the goo so much.