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The removal of split weapons
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Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-03-14 19:30:19 UTC
Jarod Kyle wrote:
The (first) quoted sentance states that Caldari have a long tradition of using missiles and that is often the weapon of choice in Caldari ship design. It does not imply that Caldari is the only race/nation with such traditions or preferences.

"In addition to robust electronics systems, the Khanid Kingdom's ships possess advanced armor alloys capable of withstanding a great deal of punishment. Generally eschewing the use of turrets, they tend to gear their vessels more towards close-range missile combat." - Damnation description

The Khanid Kingdom also has a tradition, or at least preference, to gear for missiles.

Of all the four weapon types, missiles is the most universal one, which makes sense considering it's the one that stands out.

/JK


I never said it implied anything. I said it's a reasonable expectation, at the very least from a lore perspective, to associate missiles with Caldari. You said 'it does not imply...' (which is sort of an implication anyway.) If anything, it implies the opposite, that missiles are the only weapons used by the Caldari, considering the Caldari view hybrids as 'beneath' their finest ships.

Again, this is from a lore perspective. Our posts don't contradict each other.

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Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#22 - 2013-03-14 20:24:05 UTC
Beneath their finest ships? Merlin and naga are my only replies

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Jarod Kyle
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-03-15 07:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarod Kyle
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Jarod Kyle wrote:
The (first) quoted sentance states that Caldari have a long tradition of using missiles and that is often the weapon of choice in Caldari ship design. It does not imply that Caldari is the only race/nation with such traditions or preferences.

"In addition to robust electronics systems, the Khanid Kingdom's ships possess advanced armor alloys capable of withstanding a great deal of punishment. Generally eschewing the use of turrets, they tend to gear their vessels more towards close-range missile combat." - Damnation description

The Khanid Kingdom also has a tradition, or at least preference, to gear for missiles.

Of all the four weapon types, missiles is the most universal one, which makes sense considering it's the one that stands out.

/JK


I never said it implied anything. I said it's a reasonable expectation, at the very least from a lore perspective, to associate missiles with Caldari. You said 'it does not imply...' (which is sort of an implication anyway.) If anything, it implies the opposite, that missiles are the only weapons used by the Caldari, considering the Caldari view hybrids as 'beneath' their finest ships.

Again, this is from a lore perspective. Our posts don't contradict each other.


We probably agree on this.

My interpratation (of lore) is that
a) Caldari favor missiles over other weapon systems, regarding others as inferior and
b) Missiles are the weapon system of choice for several groups in Eve.

That being said, here's another piece of lore:
"State-of-the-art armor alloys, along with missile systems developed from the most advanced Caldari designs, mean the Sacrilege may be well on its way to becoming the Royal Khanid Navy's flagship cruiser." - Sacrilege description

Khanid Innovations use Caldari designs for their missiles systems, presumably (though not stated) because Caldari missile systems are superior, at least within the Amarr/Caldari realm.

/JK
Hulasikaly Wada
DO.IT
Triumvirate.
#24 - 2013-03-15 09:27:57 UTC

IMO split weapon systems was conceptually working before the introduction of tier3 BSs but as someone already said weapon upgrades do no work for all systems ( support turrets / drone / missiles )
Splits had to be the only way to have 8 turrets/launchers fitted with DPS bonus
( only non-faction pre-tier3 with 8 turret hard points was the Apocalipse but have a different way )
Ships like Raven , Tempest and the the old Hurricane all had the ability, almost never used , to fit a second source of dps and those have somehow a way to have 1 more utility slot ( losing it from primary damage slot )
Ship like the Typhon IMO had to have more bonus to make stupid to NOT fit weapons and less option, like forcing it to be 4/4 preventing it to e 5 slot weapons plus 3 utility slots

Hula
Minimal Charisma
Padded Sell
#25 - 2013-03-15 11:32:41 UTC
Cookie cutters are bad m'kay!
The occasional "SURPRISE!" is well worth the (on average) loss of efficiency.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-03-15 11:35:16 UTC
Back when Hybrids were terrible for 4 years, it was reasonable for Caldari pilots not to bother training them.

Now it's dumb. All hybrids except medium rails are good now.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
gaijiin pok
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-03-15 13:01:09 UTC
Markius TheShed wrote:
The old tristan used to be a decent split frig blasters and rockets.



I loved the old tristan, sure it wasnt optimized in any way, but it was sorely underrated and a ton of fun to fly even if I did die a horrible death most of the timeBig smile

I did manage to surprise a few peeps who while scratching their heads asked "how the f*#k did I lose to a tristan!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#28 - 2013-03-15 15:27:01 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Beneath their finest ships? Merlin and naga are my only replies

You forgot the Rokh.
Ignitious Hellfury
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
#29 - 2013-03-16 09:18:44 UTC
Minimal Charisma wrote:
Cookie cutters are bad m'kay!
The occasional "SURPRISE!" is well worth the (on average) loss of efficiency.



I'm glad to hear another advocate for dynamic ship load outs. We are however, apparently, outnumbered. I had made a couple posts prior to this, but the forumds ate them and cba to type out 6000 characters again quite yet.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#30 - 2013-03-16 09:35:14 UTC
In essence aren't most drone boats since most get a bonus to multiple weapon systems?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Ignitious Hellfury
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
#31 - 2013-03-16 09:52:18 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
In essence aren't most drone boats since most get a bonus to multiple weapon systems?


Dominix, vexor, ishtar. Proteus sort of. Thats it though. They make for a good example of what split weapons could be like, however there is one big difference between drone boats and matar missile/proj boats: drones don't compete for fitting with turrets. Meaning that you can rock out with all your turret slots filled and still get full use of your drone bay, where with missile/proj you have unused hardpoints (4/4 config, but you could do 5/3 or 3/5 or w/e)
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#32 - 2013-03-16 09:56:09 UTC
Ignitious Hellfury wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
In essence aren't most drone boats since most get a bonus to multiple weapon systems?


Dominix, vexor, ishtar. Proteus sort of. Thats it though. They make for a good example of what split weapons could be like, however there is one big difference between drone boats and matar missile/proj boats: drones don't compete for fitting with turrets. Meaning that you can rock out with all your turret slots filled and still get full use of your drone bay, where with missile/proj you have unused hardpoints (4/4 config, but you could do 5/3 or 3/5 or w/e)

But you're only fighting for slots on very few ships, the rest have what weapon is perfered outlined other than the typhoon or loki

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-03-16 19:07:48 UTC
OT: I think split weapons can be kept but it'll take some thought to design ships which are to use such system. I've seen people occasionally mount launchers onto their gunboats when they don't see a reasonable usage of slots as utility ones. Maybe it's possible to design a few ships so that secondary system would be a decent alternative to neuts or whatever else you put into highs.

Something along the lines of 1-2 slots (and launcher hardpoints) with significant (50-100%, depending on number of hardpoints) "role" bonus to damage would do the trick. Now you can chose between neut(s), additional DPS (which isn't worth it to upgrade with damage mods, but may be worth it to fit), maybe something like rapid launcher(s) to help against frigs.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Haulie Berry
#34 - 2013-03-16 19:37:16 UTC
...saying missiles aren't a Caldari weapon system because sometimes they're found on other ships is like saying water isn't wet because sometimes it's in the form of a gas or a solid.

You're technically correct, but you're still full of ****.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#35 - 2013-03-16 19:54:16 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
...saying missiles aren't a Caldari weapon system because sometimes they're found on other ships is like saying water isn't wet because sometimes it's in the form of a gas or a solid.

You're technically correct, but you're still full of ****.

That doesn't apply to when it's the primary weapon on a certain ship (sacrilege, cyclone, typhoon, etc) like when drones are the primary dps source on a non gallente ship (Pilgrim)

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-03-17 07:17:49 UTC
The only time that I found split weapons useful was on my Level 3 passive cane (before they changed it). I would fit 2 assault launchers in addition to my artillery so I could help my drones pop frigates quicker. Outside of that they were usually just cleverly hidden neut slots.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-03-17 16:12:07 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
The only time that I found split weapons useful was on my Level 3 passive cane (before they changed it). I would fit 2 assault launchers in addition to my artillery so I could help my drones pop frigates quicker. Outside of that they were usually just cleverly hidden neut slots.

Well, the point being there was almost no ships with real split weapon systems (aside from likes of Phoon and maybe Domi. depending on how you classify it), there were ships with unbonused launcher hardpoints you'd better using for utility modules. There's almost no decent trade for that utility configuration and that is the problem.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Ignitious Hellfury
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
#38 - 2013-03-17 19:06:01 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Something along the lines of 1-2 slots (and launcher hardpoints) with significant (50-100%, depending on number of hardpoints) "role" bonus to damage would do the trick. Now you can chose between neut(s), additional DPS (which isn't worth it to upgrade with damage mods, but may be worth it to fit), maybe something like rapid launcher(s) to help against frigs.


While that would be really cool, and I think it's a neat and fun way to keep split weapons alive, I DO NOT like this as a philosophy for how to do things as far as EVE goes. Role bonuses should be applied to ship classes like BLOPS or Marauders or Transport ships or destroyers. This is part of the reason I REALLY hate the nag changes, WTF makes the nag so special it deserves a 50% dmg bonus and only 2 guns? It's literally explicitly better over a 3 turret Dread because of ammo use... but w/e, I digress


What could be done in line with what you propose, without making it a role bonus, is give it a 4-2 layout with 5 highs (let's pretend this is a T1 cruiser) with a 5% dmg bonus to it's primary (probably a turret bonus) and then a 10% rof bonus to the other 2. What you have then is 6 effective weapons, and 4 effective weapons on the other. This means you could go full damage fit and get damage comparable to other T1 cruisers, but you could still do interesting things with utility highs.

I think on the example of like a rupture with that highslot lay out and some cpu/pg tweaking it would be a REALLY fun an interesting boat. Maybe like 0-20mbit for drones (Not enough theorycrafting here for me to consider more than that for now). But that sort of setup excites me. I think it would NOT be over powered, in fact I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't like it because it doesn't fit into fleets very comfortably, but as a solo boat it's super interesting. You can pick your engagement type and your enemies have to really be careful to figure out your fitting style.
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