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Absolution PVE
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korrey
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-03-13 20:25:13 UTC
Would an Absolution be a huge downgrade from an apocalypse for level 4 mission running? Would L4 even be possible? I was playing with my fitting and realized the tank and the dps put out by the Abso is pretty astounding. And that's a pop setup, if I switched out EANMS for specific hardeners the tank would be through the roof with resistances. Is the damage taken by l4s just too much for an Abso to rep?

Just wondering. Never done many missions but looking to switch into making some isk for now.

My fit with my skills currently is
6x HPL II (Mf or Imperial navy Mf)
1x med diminishing nos

10mn MWD experimental
Med elec cap booster (800 charges)
Scram

MAR II
Dc II
2x Heatsink II
2x EANM II
800mm tungsten

according to EFT with my imperfect skills and imperial navy MF it pushes 584 dps and 466 with scorch. Resists are 80, 75,82,86, and that's non specific hardeners.

Again, I'm not a mission runner, so apologies if I'm overlooking something major, but would this run L4s? I'm only amarr so my options are limited. I've heard amarr aren't great with missions. And once the cap boosters go out so does the ship obviously.

Thanks for input. Maybe I'm missing something
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-03-13 20:49:03 UTC
I've also been wondering about going from a BS to a T2 command ship for lvl 4s (my fall back isk when Incursions are stopped)

I too was looking at an absolution, simply because I have trained my laser skills much better than anything else.
I was also considering a sleipnir, due to the minmatar's awesome resist profile (though the T2 amarr ships have a nice resist profile too) and its ability to select damage types.

However I won't be able to fly them until the skill change (as I have BC V and command ship, but no cruiser V), and who knows how they are going to get changed in the next patch.
If their bonus is changing, I expect many of their other stats to change as well, making it hard to guess how well they will perform.
korrey
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-03-13 20:57:28 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
I've also been wondering about going from a BS to a T2 command ship for lvl 4s (my fall back isk when Incursions are stopped)

I too was looking at an absolution, simply because I have trained my laser skills much better than anything else.
I was also considering a sleipnir, due to the minmatar's awesome resist profile (though the T2 amarr ships have a nice resist profile too) and its ability to select damage types.

However I won't be able to fly them until the skill change (as I have BC V and command ship, but no cruiser V), and who knows how they are going to get changed in the next patch.
If their bonus is changing, I expect many of their other stats to change as well, making it hard to guess how well they will perform.



Perhaps I should keep up with dev blogs...are they going to be changing Command Ships?

I realize a medium armor rep doesn't repair the same as BS large armor rep, but the T2 resistances can get much higher I feel like. And sig radius is somewhat smaller. I wonder if 1 med rep even with 85-89% resists is just unable to keep up with incoming dps
Lord Kronox
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#4 - 2013-03-13 22:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Kronox
I have used command ships on countless occasions for level 4 missioning. Usually not in preference to a battleship but as a nearly equal substitute for one in missions when traveling a long way to fetch a battleship or from lack of desire to buy and fit a battleship just for a few missions, presented itself. Also occasionally would run missions in low sec in a command ship as opposed to a battleship as taking out gankers in hacs or bc's is alot easier in a command ship than in a battleship because of its medium sized weapons.

The Nighthawk is excellent for missioning, just like the Raven, as it is a missile boat, but I have easily completed missions in beam laser equipped Absolutions and rail equipped Astartes. You will want to use the long range beam lasers as opposed to pulse lasers as in a command ship you will already have a significantly reduced range compared to a battleship and as I am sure you know, rats are generally cowards and many will fly away from you. With short range weapons on a command ship you will spend more time chasing things down than shooting them...

Keep in mind, your ease of completing these in a command ship depends on more than being in a command ship... your supporting skills will have a large play ie armor repair skill, the level of your beam specialization etc etc....

My two cents worth.....
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-03-13 22:39:46 UTC
korrey wrote:
Perhaps I should keep up with dev blogs...are they going to be changing Command Ships?


Skill changes here (towars the bottom, about 3/4 of the way):
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74234
- Basically, removing HAC/logistics skill reqs, removing racial cruiser, adding racial BC (when the BC skills are split)
-- Command ship skill is getting extra prereqs added, so I'm getting it on all my toons before the prereqs are changed.

Command ship change here towards the bottom:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530

These are coming in the summer*


Command ships will get bonuses to 2 types of links, not just 1 as now
There will no longer be a difference between Fleet and Field command ships, they will both be "combat"

However, these changes have no date, but the ship bonuses at least could quite plausibly come in the summer expansion, as they are adding the prereq skills to use the links to the command ship skill, and they seem to have a fairly clear idea what they're doing with these ships.


* The industrial skill changes are ********, unless they change the indys at the same time... if they're going to tiericide the indys, they should do it at the same time as the prereq changes for the ships, if they don't, everyone will fly itty Vs until they do (when they want to fly an industrial at all)
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2013-03-13 23:51:34 UTC
Oh dear. Issues.

korrey wrote:
Would an Absolution be a huge downgrade from an apocalypse for level 4 mission running? Would L4 even be possible? I was playing with my fitting and realized the tank and the dps put out by the Abso is pretty astounding. And that's a pop setup, if I switched out EANMS for specific hardeners the tank would be through the roof with resistances. Is the damage taken by l4s just too much for an Abso to rep?


I'm afraid that an Aboslution is an unambiguous downgrade from an Apoc. It's not a matter of tank or damage though; I'm relatively sure an Abso can tank enough for L4s. Nor is it strictly a matter of damage exactly. The problem is range. With your setup, Scorch is only reaching 23+5 with max skills. Swapping out the scram (why do you have a scram on a mission ship?) for a tracking computer only pushes it to 26+6.5.

I mean, it can be done. But in comparison to a fairly typical Apoc fit pushing Scorch out to 80+16 (again, max skills) the Absolution is going to spend a ridiculous amount of time getting into range.

As for your specific fit, it's a little off. The plate isn't doing anything for you and neither is the aforementioned scram. If you wanted to use it, I'd either go 4 hardeners instead of the plate, DC, and EANMs or 3 hardeners and another heat sink. Replace the mid, as mentioned, with a tracking computer. You also didn't mention rigs; you're probably going to need a processor overclock thing (CPU rig) and might want to consider an armor rep rig now that they no longer slow you down.

As for the other CSs, I've used them all in L4s. I ended up blaster fitting the Astarte (which means huge range issues, but the damage output is pretty amazing). It ran a Serpentis Blockade well enough so it does work (but keep in mind the whole blaster idea is more or less a counter-fit for that mission anyhow). Fit looked something like this:

[Astarte, mishin cheap]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

I used to used a Nighthawk pretty extensively and haven't really changed it to keep up with market fluctuations. It only really went out against Serpentis, Guristas, and Mordu's Legion. It looked like this:

[Nighthawk, standard mission fit]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Power Diagnostic System II

Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hornet II x5

A similarly fit Tengu would probably do better, but I started using that thing well before T3s were released.

The Sleipnir was easily my favorite option and I used it in both AC and arty configurations. In the less expensive AC fit it's wildly cap unstable but you don't really need to do more than feather an XL booster:

[Sleipnir, mishin]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Domination X-Large Shield Booster
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Projectile Burst Aerator II
Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I

The artillery fit was also tons of fun, though the booster is slightly on the spendy side:

[Sleipnir, mishin arties]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator II

But no, I never really made the Absolution work. The range always killed it one way or the other.
Dato Koppla
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#7 - 2013-03-14 00:20:40 UTC
Yeah, massive range issues will make it painful for you. Generally speaking, all the Command Ships will tend to be beaten by their T1 BS counterparts, just because damage at range is king in missions and BS weapons really go a long way to help that.
Lord Kronox
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#8 - 2013-03-14 01:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Kronox
As I stated I had no problem running level four missions in my Absolution. I fly all the command ships with high skills accept the Minmater. The range issue isn't that big of an issue if you use the long range weapons ie beam lasers, rail guns, and heavy missiles. While it is true you will have to fly around more, a command ship is alot faster than a battleship so it can move into position with relative ease. The nighthawk can hit things over 60 km out which is just fine for missions and yes, even with the command ships damage bonus's it does not destroy the BS rats as quick as a BS however it makes up for this with its most quick, efficient, and excellent destruction of anything smaller. Rat frigates and cruisers pop like popcorn to a Nighthawk and the time saved there when added to the time lost killing the BS's = about the same time to complete a mission....

And as far as tank... a Nighthawk can do any mission with a universal resistance passive build.. enough said there right?

The Absolution and the Astarte do not have quite the same tank but whereas I don't use an afterburner on my Nighthawks because they have acceptable range, I do use them on the Absolution and the Astarte as they need to get a bit closer. The afterburner, however, also serves another purpose.... tank. Keep moving and orbiting your battleship targets and you will have no problem tanking them as you have a smaller sig radius than a BS and you are orbitting the enemy at 400mps. Also at this orbital speed your guns will have no problem hitting the larger target as they are mediuim guns. Your big enemy will be webbers so get your drones on those immediately.
Lord Kronox
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#9 - 2013-03-14 01:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Kronox
Also you won't have to worry about training stuff just to keep on flying what you already can fly, CCP is going to give you for free whatever it takes to keep you in the ships you are already in.. as this is only right... and I quote:

Quote:
Reimbursement details:

•Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change. Technically it means if you are able to fly an Oracle by having Amarr Cruisers 3 and Battlecruisers 3, we will remove the Battlecruisers skill from your character and give you Amarr Battlecruisers at 3. If you had Battlecruisers at 3 and Caldari Cruisers 3 instead, you would not receive Amarr Battlecruisers but the Caldari Battlecruisers skill at 3 instead. The same principle work with the Destroyers skill.
•With the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, it also means that you will still be able to fly an Apocalypse even if you don’t have the Amarr Battlecruiser skill trained at 4 after the change. It won’t matter as long as you have the Amarr Battleship skill at the proper level.


For example, since I can currently fly the Gallente Astarte, the Caldari Nighthawk, and the Amar Absolution; when they remove the generic cross race Battlecruiser skill and add the four races seperate specific Battlecruisers skill... I will automatically gain Gallente Battlecruiser 5, Caldari Battlecruiser 5, and Amar Battlecruisert 5.

If you want the most return on your training time when this change hits, train Battlecruiser to 5 now... cross train into every races battlecruiser..... you only have to train one battlecruiser skill now but after the change if you are only flying one races battlecruiser, you will gain that races BC skill but if you are flying all races BC you will gain ALL FOUR SKILLS. If not, you will have to train four seperate BC skills to get cross trained into all four races... and since you need those BC skills at 5 to fly a command ship... see my point?

In fact I am going to get right on finishing my skills for Minmatar cruisers so I can quickly get into the Minamatar Command Ship so I don't have to train all 5 levels of Minmatar Battlecruiser when that skill is added.....
Dato Koppla
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#10 - 2013-03-14 01:49:55 UTC
Even with the ability to drop smaller rats faster a BS will still beat a CS in completion time most of the time as gunboats can hit frigs and cruisers on the approach and then set drones on them while shooting big targets once they are under your guns, cruise boats can hit cruisers with close to full damage at any range too with a couple rigors.

If you have BS skills therea no point training CS purely for missions, however there are some pve situations where a CS is the best ship for the job like whs but then cost becomes a big issue.
Lord Kronox
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#11 - 2013-03-14 01:53:17 UTC
As I said, when missioning in low sec I actually prefered a command ship as it is easier to fight off gankers. Also earlier I did say (in my first post) that I always prefer a BS normally for missioning but there were times where I needed to knock out some quick missions for cash or faction ammo or an implant etc... where my nearest BS was many jumps away and didn't feel like getting it.
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#12 - 2013-03-14 02:38:02 UTC
My pvp absolution does around 850 dps at 7500m (CS5 + 3 faction HS)
My alt nightmare does 1k at 37km, 765 at 54km and 535 at 91km (optimal range without falloff)

If you do lv4 for fun, then an absolution or a legion will be a good choise. If you do lv4 for iskies, then keep your apoc...then upgrade to a nightmare, buy a monocle and join the monocle clubhouse.
Lord Kronox
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#13 - 2013-03-14 02:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Kronox
bloodknight2 wrote:
My pvp absolution does around 850 dps at 7500m (CS5 + 3 faction HS)
My alt nightmare does 1k at 37km, 765 at 54km and 535 at 91km (optimal range without falloff)

If you do lv4 for fun, then an absolution or a legion will be a good choise. If you do lv4 for iskies, then keep your apoc...then upgrade to a nightmare, buy a monocle and join the monocle clubhouse.


I was looking at the artificial silver left eye... the monocle is a bit too flamboyant for my tastes........