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Game Mechanics Re: T2 Items...!!
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Captain Skarlet
u.k militia forces
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2011-10-29 01:30:46 UTC
Hi CCP,

Can you have a word with the people involved with the Game Mechanics, as any T2 item; Ship or Equipment; at worst should have the same attributes as there T1 counterparts, plus whatever associated bonuses you get with that particular T2 item are associated to enhanced equipment and is the reason why we've upgraded in the first place..!!

It just does not make any sense of logic that a T2 item (supposable being better); Ship or Equipment is worse in many areas than it's T1 cousin.
Taking into consideration that the time to train skills and use T2 items can be extensive, then you end up with something that's worse is ridiculous..

Come on guys can this be sorted out..!!
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-10-29 02:11:01 UTC
The idea behind it was some T2 modules not being better, but being manufacturable. Sure T2 plates might be inferior because of the pg usage and mass, but anybody can make them and as such cost less was the original idea.

I agree however with you. The idea is fail because there is just too many mission runners/salvagers etc that the supply never really has an issue. Now, if the meta 4s were rarer, then it might be justifiable, but we don't want that. I think T2, in the case of stuff like armor plates, should use less mass, not more to represent their advanced alloy construction.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Captain Skarlet
u.k militia forces
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2011-10-29 17:26:07 UTC
Hi Markus, Thanks for your reply...

'By the way this is the third time I am writing this reply to you as everytime I try and post it, it's bloody lost what I've written'........Why I don't know maybe another eve bug here as well..!!!

Back to my reply... This is not about the manufacture of T2 items that is a different matter altogether..!!

This issue regards the Attributes between T1 and T2 items, Ships and Equipment, an that a lot of T2 branded items are only as good as or worse than their T1 cousins.. Let me give you a couple of examples:

Exp 1: Lets take the T1 'Scorpion' vs one of it's cousins the 'Widow', which is weaker on Structure, Armor, Shields and target range. Where is the continuity on that when it's based on the T1 Hull..?

Exp 2: Is a copy and paste from a recent petition I posted regards T2 cruise missiles:
Quote: Hi Eve,

I have just trained Cruise Missiles Level V for 20 days, and so far Cruise Missile Specialization to Level 3, only to find out that the standard cruise missile has a longer flight time than the T2. How can that be..?

If you move up to T2, which is supposed to be an enhanced version of the T1, then at worst it should match the Attributes of the T1 and obviously should be better on certain factors e.g. More damage as the Advanced High Damage Wrath Fury Cruise Missile, but nothing should be less..!!

I noticed on the Advanced High Precision Missile, the flight time is 10.00s and the damage is even worse, at 260hp. So all the Attributes on this the T2 missile are the same or less than it's T1 counterpart.......... So what's the point of that...???

The point I am making here is that when you build something using the basis of something you already have, you are improving/upgrading as in T2 branded items, Ships and Equipment, this is called "Logical Progression" so nothing branded T2 should be worse than T1..!!

I hope I have explained this enough to make some sense..

Thanks....Sk
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2011-10-29 17:48:16 UTC
Captain Skarlet wrote:
Hi Markus, Thanks for your reply...

'By the way this is the third time I am writing this reply to you as everytime I try and post it, it's bloody lost what I've written'........Why I don't know maybe another eve bug here as well..!!!

Back to my reply... This is not about the manufacture of T2 items that is a different matter altogether..!!

This issue regards the Attributes between T1 and T2 items, Ships and Equipment, an that a lot of T2 branded items are only as good as or worse than their T1 cousins.. Let me give you a couple of examples:

Exp 1: Lets take the T1 'Scorpion' vs one of it's cousins the 'Widow', which is weaker on Structure, Armor, Shields and target range. Where is the continuity on that when it's based on the T1 Hull..?

Exp 2: Is a copy and paste from a recent petition I posted regards T2 cruise missiles:
Quote: Hi Eve,

I have just trained Cruise Missiles Level V for 20 days, and so far Cruise Missile Specialization to Level 3, only to find out that the standard cruise missile has a longer flight time than the T2. How can that be..?

If you move up to T2, which is supposed to be an enhanced version of the T1, then at worst it should match the Attributes of the T1 and obviously should be better on certain factors e.g. More damage as the Advanced High Damage Wrath Fury Cruise Missile, but nothing should be less..!!

I noticed on the Advanced High Precision Missile, the flight time is 10.00s and the damage is even worse, at 260hp. So all the Attributes on this the T2 missile are the same or less than it's T1 counterpart.......... So what's the point of that...???

The point I am making here is that when you build something using the basis of something you already have, you are improving/upgrading as in T2 branded items, Ships and Equipment, this is called "Logical Progression" so nothing branded T2 should be worse than T1..!!

I hope I have explained this enough to make some sense..

Thanks....Sk


Psst: All of the high damage ammo types have short range. Just like all of the high tracking/range ammo has low damage.

And the widow is a black ops ship. If you're trying to use it like a regular scorpion, you're doing it wrong (Though they do need a boost.)

t2 is all about specialisation, is it not? hence why T2 ships tend to be focussed to one thing, and why t2 ammo has one strength, and (Until winter) tends to have a weakness to go with it.
HELIC0N ONE
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-10-29 17:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: HELIC0N ONE
Captain Skarlet wrote:
The point I am making here is that when you build something using the basis of something you already have, you are improving/upgrading as in T2 branded items, Ships and Equipment, this is called "Logical Progression" so nothing branded T2 should be worse than T1..!!


Why not?

There are many ways to 'improve' something, which often involve specialising in one particular desirable aspect at the expense of others. For example, (obligatory car analogy) a car adapted for touring car racing is an 'improved' version of the road-going model, and it accelerates and decelerates much more rapidly, corners with much more agility,and offers significantly improved protection in the event of a crash, but you wouldn't use it to take the wife and kids out shopping since there's no air-con, no CD player, and no passenger seats.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#6 - 2011-10-29 18:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Hi and welcome to EVE.

This is not a game where bigger is better — it's simply bigger. This generally conveys some kind of advantage, but those advantages also come at the cost of new and interesting disadvantages to balance things out.

T2, in particular, is not an improvement or upgrade on T1 — it's a specialisation and (re)focusing of the item in question, which means some aspects are boosted at the expense of others.

So no, it's not strange in the least — much less an issue — that T2 equipment has attributes that are lower than their T1 base items.