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Main weapons
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Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2011-10-28 18:15:05 UTC
One thing that is missing from EVE is the concept of main guns.

It's only possible to fit small sized (relative to the ship) turrets with 360 degree firing arcs. In my honest opinion, here are the coolest things ships can do in scfi-fi:
-Fire the Yamato gun
-Launch the cyclonic torpedo
-Charge the superlaser; it was a trap
-Shoot the MAC shell at relativistic speeds
-Zap them with the Planet Killer

etc.

Simply put, huge, hull-mounted guns are awesome.
Right now, only Titans have their doomsday weapons.

Here's my suggestion:

New rigs:

Offensive superstructure reconfiguration I
Offensive superstructure reconfiguration II



What they do:
-T1 allows fitting one oversized weapon (Medium on a frigate, Large on a cruiser, Cap size on a BS)
-T2 allows fitting one doubly oversized weapon (Large on a frigate, Cap on a cruiser, Cap on a BS)
-Reduce structure by x%
-One rig max per ship

New skill:
Main weapon operation

Guns mounted thusly have the following properties (affected by the skill):
-xx% to power grid/cpu need (to make them fittable, but the main gun should still take more PG and CPU than a correctly sized gun.)
+xx% to damage (The ship is literally built around firing and powering the gun)
+XXX% cycle time (at least 30 seconds)
-The ship must align to the target in order to fire (firing cone of about 5 degrees, +2 per skill level)

It's basically a mini doomsday/ siege mode for all ships. It would allow smaller ships to lay some hurt on larger ships and structures, AND look damn cool doing it.

It's also way cooler than adding ship classes that are made to fit larger weapons. Why should stealth bombers and t3 cruisers have all the fun?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
HELIC0N ONE
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-10-28 18:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: HELIC0N ONE
Krios Ahzek wrote:
-The ship must align to the target in order to fire (firing cone of about 5 degrees, +2 per skill level)


I knew this bit was coming and it's where the idea falls down - EVE's physics engine doesn't account for this as things stand and would require significant rewriting to enable it. And to be honest, your suggestion isn't interesting enough to justify it, since the only real end result would be to enable ships to do a bit more damage against larger targets, which isn't particularly radical or exciting.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-10-28 18:29:55 UTC
HELIC0N ONE wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
-The ship must align to the target in order to fire (firing cone of about 5 degrees, +2 per skill level)


I knew this bit was coming and it's where the idea falls down - EVE's physics engine doesn't account for this as things stand and would require significant rewriting to enable it. And to be honest, your suggestion isn't interesting enough to justify it, since the only real end result would be to enable ships to do a bit more damage against larger targets, which isn't particularly radical or exciting.



I was afraid of that, but to be honest it's more about the fluff than the crunch. I just think that a ship isn't complete without an awesome wave motion gun that needs to charge in order to fire, even if it's pitifully inefficient.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#4 - 2011-10-28 18:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
HELIC0N ONE wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
-The ship must align to the target in order to fire (firing cone of about 5 degrees, +2 per skill level)


I knew this bit was coming and it's where the idea falls down - EVE's physics engine doesn't account for this as things stand and would require significant rewriting to enable it. And to be honest, your suggestion isn't interesting enough to justify it, since the only real end result would be to enable ships to do a bit more damage against larger targets, which isn't particularly radical or exciting.

"your ship is a point" thats correct.

but: if a point moves it has a direction, thats why sentries move (slowly) and SB have to move too...

eve could use the exact same workaround here too. Move the ship and you have a vector (edit: how fast doesn't really matter).

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-10-28 18:34:20 UTC
They could reuse the code used to initiate warp, but reduce the speed needed to 0,001% instead of 75%...

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2011-10-28 19:19:18 UTC
Did you know that with [lots of] fitting mods you can fit an "oversized" weapon to a ship?

How did you Veterans start?
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-10-28 20:00:24 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Did you know that with [lots of] fitting mods you can fit an "oversized" weapon to a ship?


Yes, but it sucks and it still doesn't have the ''FIRE THE SUPERLASER!'' vibe.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#8 - 2011-10-28 20:11:33 UTC
How would you determine how much fitting room an oversized weapon uses? A "use this rig and you can fit an oversized weapon for free" is way out of balance.

There's already a method for balancing out weapons and what can be fit, there are even ways to fit oversized weapons if you feel the need. Not supported at all.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-10-28 20:23:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
mxzf wrote:
How would you determine how much fitting room an oversized weapon uses? .



That's CCP's job. This is the idea, the crunch can be figured out through spreadsheets and testing. There's no reason why it can't be balanced.

Please read my entire post. It's more like: use this rig and you can fit an oversized weapon BUT you need to align and can only fire it once every minute.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-10-28 21:03:32 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
One thing that is missing from EVE is the concept of main guns.

It's only possible to fit small sized (relative to the ship) turrets with 360 degree firing arcs. In my honest opinion, here are the coolest things ships can do in scfi-fi:
-Fire the Yamato gun
-Launch the cyclonic torpedo
-Charge the superlaser; it was a trap
-Shoot the MAC shell at relativistic speeds
-Zap them with the Planet Killer

etc.

Simply put, huge, hull-mounted guns are awesome.
Right now, only Titans have their doomsday weapons.

Here's my suggestion:

New rigs:

Offensive superstructure reconfiguration I
Offensive superstructure reconfiguration II



What they do:
-T1 allows fitting one oversized weapon (Medium on a frigate, Large on a cruiser, Cap size on a BS)
-T2 allows fitting one doubly oversized weapon (Large on a frigate, Cap on a cruiser, Cap on a BS)
-Reduce structure by x%
-One rig max per ship

New skill:
Main weapon operation

Guns mounted thusly have the following properties (affected by the skill):
-xx% to power grid/cpu need (to make them fittable, but the main gun should still take more PG and CPU than a correctly sized gun.)
+xx% to damage (The ship is literally built around firing and powering the gun)
+XXX% cycle time (at least 30 seconds)
-The ship must align to the target in order to fire (firing cone of about 5 degrees, +2 per skill level)

It's basically a mini doomsday/ siege mode for all ships. It would allow smaller ships to lay some hurt on larger ships and structures, AND look damn cool doing it.

It's also way cooler than adding ship classes that are made to fit larger weapons. Why should stealth bombers and t3 cruisers have all the fun?

yes yes, we ALL understand how exciting it is havging seen Yamato/star wars/gundam/every mecha/sci-fi anime or movie out there. but realistically, EvE is not that kinda game. Big ships are the only ones with BIG GUNS because it would be ridiculous otherwise, and frankly, implementing this in ANY way that made it "exciting" or even worth fitting would cause so much "OP GUN NEEDZ NERFS NAO" whines that it would be nerfed into either uselesness or removed entirely.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#11 - 2011-10-28 21:17:29 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
mxzf wrote:
How would you determine how much fitting room an oversized weapon uses? .



That's CCP's job. This is the idea, the crunch can be figured out through spreadsheets and testing. There's no reason why it can't be balanced.

Please read my entire post. It's more like: use this rig and you can fit an oversized weapon BUT you need to align and can only fire it once every minute.


That's the thing you're not getting. What you're talking about (except for the align to fire) IS ALREADY THERE.

Check this out, it's amazing. I just fit an oversized gun to this ship, without having to change a single thing!

[Rifter, New Setup 2]
Micro 'Vigor' I Core Augmentation
Micro 'Vigor' I Core Augmentation
Local Hull Conversion Nanofiber Structure I

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Dual 180mm AutoCannon I, EMP M
150mm Light AutoCannon I, EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon I, EMP S
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-10-28 21:23:48 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
mxzf wrote:
How would you determine how much fitting room an oversized weapon uses? .



That's CCP's job. This is the idea, the crunch can be figured out through spreadsheets and testing. There's no reason why it can't be balanced.

Please read my entire post. It's more like: use this rig and you can fit an oversized weapon BUT you need to align and can only fire it once every minute.


That's the thing you're not getting. What you're talking about (except for the align to fire) IS ALREADY THERE.

Check this out, it's amazing. I just fit an oversized gun to this ship, without having to change a single thing!

[Rifter, New Setup 2]
Micro 'Vigor' I Core Augmentation
Micro 'Vigor' I Core Augmentation
Local Hull Conversion Nanofiber Structure I

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Dual 180mm AutoCannon I, EMP M
150mm Light AutoCannon I, EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon I, EMP S
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I



Yeah, yeah, I know it's possible to EFT warrior fits like that. I've been having fun for weeks with oversized MWDs.
Now try it with lasers...
Anyways, you quite simply missed the entire point.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#13 - 2011-10-28 21:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
Krios Ahzek wrote:

Yeah, yeah, I know it's possible to EFT warrior fits like that. I've been having fun for weeks with oversized MWDs.
Now try it with lasers...
Anyways, you quite simply missed the entire point.


The only difference between what I did and what you're talking about is that your proposal wouldn't require the two MAPCs. So, you'd end up with an extra Gyro and small repper compared to my fit, or something like that.

And it's actually you that has missed the point. What you're suggesting is already possible. But in Eve's combat environment it's completely pointless. The reason no one fits one or two oversized guns is that it's worse performance than to use all the same gun. Oversized guns have different tracking, different ranges, and different ammo requirements, all of which make it less efficient to use one big gun and lots of small guns than it is to use all the same size.

The only thing I could imagine your suggestion being used for would be to fit XL guns on BSes and swarm them to take out Cap ships. For everything else, it's better to pick one weapon type and stick with it (and even then it probably wouldn't work out well).
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-10-28 22:09:30 UTC
I support this just because I've always wanted something similar to the ion cannon frigates and vaygr BC in the homeworld series.
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-10-29 00:38:39 UTC
Supported as a 'anti-supercap' weapon for sub-caps.

Anything like this for subcap vs subcap use however would either be extremely overpowered or underpowered depending on the setup.

Could require some forward movement just to counter recoil, generate sufficient engine power e.t.c.

-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more) 
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#16 - 2011-10-29 00:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bearilian
I support this because its an attempt to offer new additions to weapons and combat, which is something everyplayer anywhere can appreciate. I understand that there are lots of balancing issues to be considered, but there are always ways to make something work.

This is my oppinion. How about just adding a weapon type, that requires a charge up time. something that could do consideralbe damage after, lets say 60 to 120 seconds.
because it would charge slowly over time, the draw from the cpu and power grid could be rather low. this could allow, lets say a cruiser to do a burst of bs lvl damage.
then after use, an even greater cool down time.



Is this to different from what you are suggesting? and all the arguers out there; does this seem feezable? (or to unbalancing?)


-just to throw it out there; another possible solution would to build a ship designed for such a thing. could there be a small hulled ship meant to just tank, and have one super canon? ( I realize that steath bombers are just this, but theres no reason to not continue to add to the diversity eve has to offer)
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#17 - 2011-10-29 01:13:18 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNb2pASeyXM
skip to 9:00 to see the most awesome siege weapon you can get in a game. (also notice how it got disrupted as one of the involved ships was engaged)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-10-29 01:33:19 UTC
Alrighty, i agree in principle, but really in eve it just dosent fit, yes i love spinal guns greatly (mmmm...... sajuuk) but for eve it really just dosent fit, maybe in other games, but eve would need a major rehaul for it to work properly
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#19 - 2011-10-29 01:37:42 UTC
Solinuas wrote:
Alrighty, i agree in principle, but really in eve it just dosent fit, yes i love spinal guns greatly (mmmm...... sajuuk) but for eve it really just dosent fit, maybe in other games, but eve would need a major rehaul for it to work properly

it already works for stealth bombers. Its technically the same concept.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-10-29 18:06:24 UTC
Bearilian wrote:
I support this because its an attempt to offer new additions to weapons and combat, which is something everyplayer anywhere can appreciate. I understand that there are lots of balancing issues to be considered, but there are always ways to make something work.

This is my oppinion. How about just adding a weapon type, that requires a charge up time. something that could do consideralbe damage after, lets say 60 to 120 seconds.
because it would charge slowly over time, the draw from the cpu and power grid could be rather low. this could allow, lets say a cruiser to do a burst of bs lvl damage.
then after use, an even greater cool down time.



Is this to different from what you are suggesting? and all the arguers out there; does this seem feezable? (or to unbalancing?)


-just to throw it out there; another possible solution would to build a ship designed for such a thing. could there be a small hulled ship meant to just tank, and have one super canon? ( I realize that steath bombers are just this, but theres no reason to not continue to add to the diversity eve has to offer)


Adding new weapons would be the easy way out, actually. Just add one type of spinal weapon per ship size per race.

Stealth bombers and the new t3 BCs are indeed pretty much proof that it can be balanced, but they don't have the very important main weapon feeling.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
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