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General strategy for defeating kiting Caracal

Author
Skarp Severasse
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#1 - 2013-03-09 19:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Skarp Severasse
Hi all,

so I have been getting hammered by this kiting Caracal in my destroyers and frigs. Not surprising that my unskilled pilot would get hammered, but it lead me to do some theorycraft on the Caracal.

Below is a fit i whipped together in Pyfa:

[Caracal Navy Issue]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Remote Sensor Dampener II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator I
Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Stats:
Range: 63.3 km
DPS: 231
Speed: 1664 m/s
EHP: 18.2k
Cap: 2m 30s

Note that it has sensor dampener.

What would be the general strategy for defeating this bugger in a frigate or destroyer? I know the DPS is low, but for a frig it would certainly be enough to kill it. I think even fast destroyers would be hard pressed because they wouldn't be that much faster than the Caracal. But I could be wrong. I hear speed is the way to go, but would any ship even get within scram range before it died?

If you could come up with a solution for a young pilot with limited skills, that would be even better.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#2 - 2013-03-09 20:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Firstly, it's worth noting that the navy caracal is crap as it hasn't been rebalanced. Even a regular caracal is likely to be better. Regardless...

You want a frigate that's going to kill a cruiser that has dedicated itself to killing frigates. Not going to happen.

Any fast cruiser (Thorax, Caracal, Rupture, Omen, even a tanky Stabber) will, however, have a great chance. The only problem is that because of the low fitting cost of RLMLs, he can be pretty tanky.

If you can catch him in any tanky cruiser you'll kill him. A nano'd cruiser (something fast like an Omen) could probably kill him but it's a bit closer depending on skills, fittings, and how much damage he gets on you before you get in range.

You will not kill such a fit with any single frigate. Even if you manage to get in scram range, RLML caracals are tanky and will be doing at least as much damage to you as you are to him.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-03-09 23:07:50 UTC
Dual prop Enyo against Navy Caracal as it is restricted to kinetic. Normal Caracal is probably more dangerous and best avoided.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#4 - 2013-03-10 00:32:19 UTC
Scramweb it, jam it and poo in its eye.

Not that much different from any other ship tbh
Skarp Severasse
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#5 - 2013-03-10 01:11:26 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Firstly, it's worth noting that the navy caracal is crap as it hasn't been rebalanced. Even a regular caracal is likely to be better. Regardless...

You want a frigate that's going to kill a cruiser that has dedicated itself to killing frigates. Not going to happen.

Any fast cruiser (Thorax, Caracal, Rupture, Omen, even a tanky Stabber) will, however, have a great chance. The only problem is that because of the low fitting cost of RLMLs, he can be pretty tanky.

If you can catch him in any tanky cruiser you'll kill him. A nano'd cruiser (something fast like an Omen) could probably kill him but it's a bit closer depending on skills, fittings, and how much damage he gets on you before you get in range.

You will not kill such a fit with any single frigate. Even if you manage to get in scram range, RLML caracals are tanky and will be doing at least as much damage to you as you are to him.

Appreciate the insight, Kahega. It put things in perspective. Much appreciated.

Also +1 to Yuri Intaki, not because your antagonistic reply was any good, but because you are partly the reason I posted this thread. I am enjoying the encounters even though I get beat to a pulp every time.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2013-03-10 02:03:51 UTC
I don't think there is any frig/dessie that will kill a rLML caracal 1v1

I'd go for a cruiser.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Skarp Severasse
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#7 - 2013-03-10 02:08:32 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I don't think there is any frig/dessie that will kill a rLML caracal 1v1

I think you might be right.
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#8 - 2013-03-10 03:08:29 UTC
Well, there are ways to kill it solo in a frig, but I don't think they are available to you.

I'd go with at least 2 frigs or one cruiser.
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#9 - 2013-03-10 04:11:53 UTC
[Vengeance, Vengeance fit]

Overdrive Injector System II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Small Armor Repairer II
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200
Warp Scrambler II

Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I


(PG implant or swapping a nano pump for an ACR could replace the overdrive and cover the Thermal hole)

You'd have to camp the gate of a Medium plex and snag the Caracal on the warp-in. Even still, it'd be a pretty rough fight and a dual-web Caracal would still have a huge advantage. Any ideas?

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Cute E
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-03-10 13:02:11 UTC
Yes, don't failfit your Vengeance.
Cute E
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-03-10 13:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cute E
For this specific task, I'd run this:
[Vengeance, Blackstone mk3]
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Rocket
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Rocket

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Nanobot Accelerator I

Needs a 1% CPU implant and V armor comps skill to work best.

It should allow you to get up close and personal really fast (3227m/s overheated), get a scram on, then offline the MWD and get around 44s of capacitor with everything running or 58% cap stable with only the deadspace repper running (should be plenty really). Pop the strongest Exile booster available (or Mindflood, for that matter, might actually work) and wear the guy down with around 150DPS (rage rockets).


Bit more expensive:
[Vengeance, Blackstone mk3]
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I

Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
'Upir' Small Nosferatu I
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Nanobot Accelerator I

No CPU implant required so maybe a LG/HG slave set would help?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#12 - 2013-03-10 15:15:10 UTC
AARs still eat cap. That fit caps itself out in 20s with everything running.

Quote:
You'd have to camp the gate of a Medium plex and snag the Caracal on the warp-in. Even still, it'd be a pretty rough fight and a dual-web Caracal would still have a huge advantage. Any ideas?


Even a single-web Caracal will be doing basically full damage even with your AB on.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#13 - 2013-03-10 16:19:44 UTC
I would honestly say use a T1 caracal over the navy issue. The t1 is faster, has enough cpu to actually fit 2 lse and invul (with its choice of HM, Hams, or RLML), and has the choice using any damage type it wants (well, any missile boat has this choice, infact most navy caracal pilots will carry explosive and em just incase), but the T1 caracal is actually bonused for it.


There are ways to speedtank RLML caracals, involving ABs, drugs (at least standard, preferably improved), and implants to reduce your signature radius, add in loki links and you're pretty much set.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-03-10 22:37:08 UTC
Skarp, firstly, don't engage that guy alone.

Secondly, the fit is much more likely to look something like this.

Thirdly, a RLML Caracal will be utterly terrible against any cruiser that's fit to fight things its own size. Before you joined the corporation, we ran into a guy called Jurik McMoney who flew literally nothing but RLML Caracals. And I do mean literally nothing else - even if he couldn't get into a plex, he'd show up in one and just sit on the gate (even if he knew no-one else was coming into the plex). The problem, as he soon discovered, is that the only advantage the RLML Caracal has over other cruisers is its ability to kite. If it loses that, it dies horribly in a fire, because any properly-buffered high-DPS cruiser will eat through the shield tank with its larger weaponry while the Caracal's light missiles go plink-plink-plink and do basically nothing. Additionally, Jurik was smart enough to carry missiles with various damage types, but if a Caracal uses anything other than Scourge its damage drops noticeably since it stops getting its kinetic damage bonus.

As with many kiting ships, the RLML Caracal can be thwarted by sitting on the warp-in point of the plex and scramming it as soon as it enters. You have to be very vigilant in case it tries to get out of your scram range (which is why having a friend with you helps, obviously) and be ready to punch your microwarpdrive and scram the second they come back online. Judiciously overheating your scram and possibly your MWD (although be very, very careful of overheating your MWD as it'll burn out FAST) can help prevent him from getting away. If the Caracal has a web in addition to a scram it cannot possibly have more than two shield extenders (unless it dropped the propulsion module, which on a cruiser is a fitting tactic more commonly known as "suicide") which means that its buffer certainly won't outlast the buffer of a cruiser fit for killing cruisers if it remains in optimal range.

In all likelihood if a RLML Caracal sees two cruisers sitting inside a plex it won't enter it without calling for backup, but that's fine too.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#15 - 2013-03-11 00:11:14 UTC
For those of you discussing the Caracal's kinetic damage bonus, it no longer has that.

"5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity"

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-03-11 03:07:12 UTC
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:
For those of you discussing the Caracal's kinetic damage bonus, it no longer has that.

"5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity"

Ugh, totally forgot that. Don't fly them, you see.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#17 - 2013-03-11 03:27:18 UTC
Cute E wrote:
For this specific task, I'd run this:

The exact thing you posted, just MWD instead of AB. Then I put parts on that cost more than the target ship.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2013-03-11 06:01:22 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
AARs still eat cap. That fit caps itself out in 20s with everything running.

Quote:
You'd have to camp the gate of a Medium plex and snag the Caracal on the warp-in. Even still, it'd be a pretty rough fight and a dual-web Caracal would still have a huge advantage. Any ideas?


Even a single-web Caracal will be doing basically full damage even with your AB on.



You don't run everything.

Silly man.



I still don't think the veng will win unless it has links though.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#19 - 2013-03-11 06:14:16 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Skarp, firstly, don't engage that guy alone.


Why? By your own words I am an "unskilled N00b" who can be "killed by anyone with half-decent fit".
Skarp Severasse
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#20 - 2013-03-11 13:16:17 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:

My word, old chap. You forgot to tell me you have written a blog post about it: Magic Nullification: Countering Kiting (I accidentally a link)

Well done!
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