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Consensual wars only

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#201 - 2013-03-08 20:12:01 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Angelic Resolution wrote:

You may want to open up the Map, go to the Star Map tab, then Stars and under Statistics - you know, those things that CCP base their player count projections on - and click the "Average Pilots in space in the last 30 minutes".
How many of those players would dislike these changes?

Making highsec safer? That's what highsec is all about !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2013-03-08 20:15:24 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Making highsec safer? That's what highsec is all about !


I know this is intended to be sarcastic, but... well... yeah. Why not?

If you don't like safe space, don't be in high sec.
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#203 - 2013-03-08 23:51:08 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Making highsec safer? That's what highsec is all about !


I know this is intended to be sarcastic, but... well... yeah. Why not?

If you don't like safe space, don't be in high sec.


Many players want it to be safe for them but unsafe for their targets...

So they don't go into low/null (where it would be unsafe for them), they stay in highsec where they feel safer and where the mission runners and miners think its safe and they make it unsafe.
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#204 - 2013-03-08 23:58:58 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
EVE gets more World of War crack style everyday. Move level 3 and 4 missions to low, allow war dec's to follow players who bail fromp corp and prevent seasoned players from entering NPC corps.

EVE is a multiplayer game, people who disagree should pull out their net cable and play freelancer.

Having decs follow pilots, or preventing those pilots from being in NPC corps will not result in those pilots participating in war. They will just log into an alt who is not at war, or if there are none, start a buddy account so they can create some that are not at war. Or just play a different game for the duration.

Again, you cannot force a player to log in.

People who do not like war not saying they do not like multiplayer games, they just do not want to participate in this one particular type of multiplayer interaction. Eve is such a wide open game that it has far far more ways of interaction.


Have the wardec follow the pilot into the NPC corp. War deccer gets more targets and NPC corp players get to fleet with their NPC navy units in caps and supers and hot-drop the war deccer in highsec.

(I see no reason why the NPC navies can't light cynos in their own space, they control the cyno jammers).

This would introduce risk to the wardeccing party and isn't that what Eve is all about? Wardec a highsec corp, someone leaves that highsec corp and goes into an NPC corp and now you have a war with a highsec corp that can drop caps and supers on you. Risk. Eve. Pewpew.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#205 - 2013-03-09 00:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
Have the wardec follow the pilot into the NPC corp. War deccer gets more targets and NPC corp players get to fleet with their NPC navy units in caps and supers and hot-drop the war deccer in highsec.

(I see no reason why the NPC navies can't light cynos in their own space, they control the cyno jammers).

This would introduce risk to the wardeccing party and isn't that what Eve is all about? Wardec a highsec corp, someone leaves that highsec corp and goes into an NPC corp and now you have a war with a highsec corp that can drop caps and supers on you. Risk. Eve. Pewpew.

Yes. A Caldari Navy slowcat fleet jumps in on your Caracal that just scrammed a "NPC corp" freighter.

Completely balanced, and makes highsec safer.


You know what, how about we DON'T have this, and when the bad guy shoots you, CONCORD shows up and wastes them?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#206 - 2013-03-09 09:39:11 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
Have the wardec follow the pilot into the NPC corp. War deccer gets more targets and NPC corp players get to fleet with their NPC navy units in caps and supers and hot-drop the war deccer in highsec.

(I see no reason why the NPC navies can't light cynos in their own space, they control the cyno jammers).

This would introduce risk to the wardeccing party and isn't that what Eve is all about? Wardec a highsec corp, someone leaves that highsec corp and goes into an NPC corp and now you have a war with a highsec corp that can drop caps and supers on you. Risk. Eve. Pewpew.

Yes. A Caldari Navy slowcat fleet jumps in on your Caracal that just scrammed a "NPC corp" freighter.

Completely balanced, and makes highsec safer.


You know what, how about we DON'T have this, and when the bad guy shoots you, CONCORD shows up and wastes them?


Thats totally not what I'm talking about and you know it.
Deriah Book
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2013-03-09 16:30:18 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:


Corps like yours are not the issue. Its corps of people who have found that a confrontational interaction with another person, even one mediated by a computer game, causes stress that they do not like. For such people adrenaline leaves them feeling drained and maybe even sick. Not a desirable thing to happen in an activity you do for fun.
Apparently corps of such players are the defender in 70% to 80% of all wars in eve. To me this indicate that stress adverse players are not some tiny group, but a fairly large segment of the player base.
These wars are not the strong preying on the weak, its the adrenaline lovers preying on the adrenaline haters. The adrenaline haters are doing exactly what you would expect: Avoiding adrenaline.


I'm late to the troll party, aren't I...

Just in case I'm not, we have a corpie who suffers those exact symptoms. He comes to visit for 1-3 weeks every 4-5 months. Eventually, Eve start to affect his health and he leaves again. Even this person I'm referencing wouldn't consider taking the violent PVP out of any segment of Eve. (He comes to visit because we are friends.)

Speaking plainly, if you have this response to any game or activity, then it's not for you. Eve can't be for everybody and that's why everybody you know isn't playing Eve. Think of it like a race track. You have an adrenaline aversion but you hear a lot about racing so you go to give it a try. After hitting the pace you realize that it is too much for you and you are starting to feel ill. (Which happens from time to time at the racetrack, btw.) Do you then ask everyone to slow down for your sake? Or do you rent a caravan and take a nice drive along a mountain road that follows a creek? And if you do ask everyone to slow down and drive leisurely and they do, then what has happened to racing? Is it so important to not have the option of racing at your local track because it doesn't suit you?

When I used the term intangible earlier I was referring to the true sandbox nature of Eve in some way. Eve is hard. Not only because it's complex, but it's harsh, as well. It's as if psychopaths sign up for the game in droves. That is the nature of Eve, and it is the beauty of Eve. It is what makes Eve unique. Taking that away, even if only in 0.0, will destroy Eve.

I would much rather see 4 beginner regions where no violent PVP takes place. They would have isolated markets and one way gates. No player outside the regions could come in. The gate wouldn't even show up in space. Eve could make it clear that once you leave a certain boundary you are then in the game proper and there is no going back. Mature characters could petition to be returned to beginner space under the condition that that toon will never, ever have the option of returning to the main game. I'm sure it would be very helpful to have veterans helping new players learn the ins and outs of the game mechanic. At least in a manner like this, if you really, really must play Eve, but can't stand being shot at, you can still play.

As far as how to reward peaceful corps for engaging in wardecs.... well, I've been thinking about it for a few days and have not come up with one idea that's any better than anything that's already been stated. That's a tough nut to crack without ending up with a mechanic that eventually be as broken as the wardec system.

That being said, I find it rather fun to go mine in Wspace for a week knowing that the wardeccing alliance is wasting money. Any option in a wardec, whether it be fighting, or hiding, or just logging off, is all a part of the game. You take your chances in any decision you make. Offensive or defensive.
Knorkor
Ministry of Silly Walk
#208 - 2013-03-09 16:38:22 UTC
As much as I hate high sec wars, I am against it.

Eve is a harsh place and should remain it.
Spetznak Sokarad
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2013-03-09 17:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Spetznak Sokarad
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
EVE gets more World of War crack style everyday. Move level 3 and 4 missions to low, allow war dec's to follow players who bail fromp corp and prevent seasoned players from entering NPC corps.

EVE is a multiplayer game, people who disagree should pull out their net cable and play freelancer.



Why do you want all the carebears to quit and bankrupt CCP?



you keep spewing this as if it is a fact.... ever occur to you that many carebears would just adapt and continue forward?

as far as yourself --- if you quit, you wouldnt be missed. you play this game as the role of an npc bot anyways.

QUIT eating the sand.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#210 - 2013-03-09 19:17:28 UTC
Spetznak Sokarad wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
EVE gets more World of War crack style everyday. Move level 3 and 4 missions to low, allow war dec's to follow players who bail fromp corp and prevent seasoned players from entering NPC corps.

EVE is a multiplayer game, people who disagree should pull out their net cable and play freelancer.

Why do you want all the carebears to quit and bankrupt CCP?

you keep spewing this as if it is a fact.... ever occur to you that many carebears would just adapt and continue forward?

as far as yourself --- if you quit, you wouldnt be missed. you play this game as the role of an npc bot anyways.

QUIT eating the sand.

Adapt and continue forward, is this a joke? Clearly not - they'd play the unsub card !!

EVE is dying !!!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ken 1138
State War Academy
Caldari State
#211 - 2013-03-09 19:21:59 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
"..CCP and the CSM have been feverishly discussing the total elimination of non-consensual wardecs, too."

WTF?

Now I'm not one to normally say "If 'x' happens I will resign my subscription", but if this asshattery happens I will.

I put about $400-500 annually into the EVE universe (above subscriptions) because I can't be bothered humping asteroids or day trading to fund my pvp. CCP needs to ask itself, do you want to lose players like me on your road to nerfdom?

(I almost quit when can-flipping and ganking got nerfed, doing this is without a doubt the last straw for me...)

p.s.
Yes, if this happens, someone can have my stuff.

F



If that's all it takes for you to quit a well established game that you've been playing for years. Well then i say good day sir. o7
NocturnalDeath
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2013-03-10 18:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: NocturnalDeath
Ranger 1 wrote:

A change to the war dec system does not equal the removal of the war dec system.

To encourage people to engage activily in a war there need to be victory conditions in place that have a meaningful impact on the game and are desirable to obtain.


This is the issue exactly. Any effective discussion should include victory conditions.

However I disagree that having your target remain docked for a week is undesireable, even if it is undesireable for CCP.

How should CCP address this undesireable behavior? I would hope that it would be addressed through educating the decced entity of their options, and not by making it more difficult to wardec.

Trammel Killed UO
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
#213 - 2013-03-10 18:44:09 UTC
How about this then:

Instead of a fee paid when the war is declared, the cost of the declaration is removed altogether. Instead a fee is paid for each ship or structure that is destroyed, call it a bribe to CONCORD for looking the other way, depending on the ISK value of the item destroyed.

That way if a target corporation folds and restarts to dump the war or just docks for the duration then the deccing corporation loses nothing but the cost of maintaining a war still has to be considered like it is now if the target corporation joins in.

Two of the defining characteristics of a carebear are wanting other players to play the way the carebear wants and whining on the forums for the game to change when they don't. Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about wanting the game changed to suit them.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2013-03-10 20:02:13 UTC
NocturnalDeath wrote:


How should CCP address this undesireable behavior? I would hope that it would be addressed through educating the decced entity of their options, and not by making it more difficult to wardec.


I think a lot of people are aware of the options, that's the problem for the nonconsensual wardeccers. The defenders know that if they're not interested in fights, dropping corp and reforming is the best option. Personally I'd like to see that option removed, and leave the NPC corps as the sole refuge from war decs. Plus add in more mechanical incentives to be in a player corp over the NPC ones.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#215 - 2013-03-10 20:33:48 UTC
Why is this discussion even going on?

Either you give players options...."A Sandbox".
Or you try to force them into your playstyle...At which time they start looking for another game they enjoy playing.....

Forcing players into dealing with a wardec is unlikely to have the effect you desire. If your really that lazy and incompetent that you can't find people to shoot, then maybe you are playing the wrong game?

Why do so many people now, think that the only choice is their choice, and everyone must be forced into it? Take a step back, and ask yourself if you would still play this game if they forced to to be a carebear? Forced to mine in order to play the game? Oops


Signature removed - CCP Eterne
NocturnalDeath
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#216 - 2013-03-10 21:07:58 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Why is this discussion even going on?

Forcing players into dealing with a wardec is unlikely to have the effect you desire. If your really that lazy and incompetent that you can't find people to shoot, then maybe you are playing the wrong game?



Wardeccing is rarely about "finding people to shoot" as they almost always turtle up.

Your assumptions on why corporations are wardecced are incorrect.

Deccer's motivations are:

1. To get paid, either by a merc contract or some form of ransom.
2. To blow up assets. (like a POS)
3. To Recruit. Join or die
4. To get tears. Sometimes its just fun when the carebear cries.
5. To get a fight. Rarely.
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
#217 - 2013-03-10 21:14:59 UTC
NocturnalDeath wrote:

4. To get tears. Sometimes its just fun when the carebear cries.


Just like this thread :)

Two of the defining characteristics of a carebear are wanting other players to play the way the carebear wants and whining on the forums for the game to change when they don't. Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about wanting the game changed to suit them.
Agent Trask
Doomheim
#218 - 2013-03-10 21:21:07 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Yes, if this happens, someone can have my stuff.

F



James315 will use your stuff and ISK to suicide gank the carebear dolts that want the benefits of having a corporation without the risks of having a corporation.

Sell your main, and then drop him a mail before you hit the biomass button.

Join the New Order, buy your permit today, and follow the code.

www.minerbumping.com
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#219 - 2013-03-10 21:25:14 UTC
Agent Trask wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Yes, if this happens, someone can have my stuff.

James315 will use your stuff and ISK to suicide gank the carebear dolts that want the benefits of having a corporation without the risks of having a corporation.

Sell your main, and then drop him a mail before you hit the biomass button.

Giving people stuff before biomassing huh. Sounds safe ...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Agent Trask
Doomheim
#220 - 2013-03-10 21:42:04 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Agent Trask wrote:


...
Sell your main, and then drop him a mail before you hit the biomass button.

Giving people stuff before biomassing huh. Sounds safe ...


If you are going to biomass anyway, how can you lose?

Join the New Order, buy your permit today, and follow the code.

www.minerbumping.com